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Thread: 12GA FH--Hairy Shotgun/Rifle--

  1. #301
    Gunco Member hubel458's Avatar
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    10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
    are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
    10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
    Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
    seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
    shown in the picture below, also
    American Arms, and Richland Arms.
    And probably a few more.

    I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
    ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
    for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
    loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
    still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
    with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
    Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
    the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.

    For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
    900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
    guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
    Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
    barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
    keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.

    These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
    heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
    enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
    Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
    and others have made big bore rifles
    using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
    double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
    gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed


  2. #302
    Gunco Member hubel458's Avatar
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    Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
    a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
    16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.

    Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
    and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.

    Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
    penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.

    Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
    in a sabot I figured out the following.
    The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
    12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
    cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
    Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
    In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
    gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
    with 440gr slug in blue sabot.

    If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
    would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed

    More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs-






    Last edited by hubel458; 09-29-2011 at 04:52 AM.

  3. #303
    Gunco Member hubel458's Avatar
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    Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
    I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
    it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
    is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
    Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
    In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
    slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
    being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
    The slugs have real good shoulder to
    roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
    These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
    work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
    that the brass case guys want to use.
    Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
    a bad deal to get them and change them.Ed.




  4. #304
    GuncoHolic 2ndAmendican's Avatar
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    Definitely interesting looking.
    Enforcement, NOT Amnesty!!!!!!

    "If they’re going to come here illegally, apply for & receive assistance through a corrupted Government agency encouraging this lawless behavior, work under the table & send billions of dollars each year back to their families in Mexico, while bleeding local economies dry, protest in our streets waving their Mexican flags DEMANDING rights, while I have to press ’1′ for English, then they need to be shipped back to where they came from!" -Chad Miller

  5. #305
    Gunco Member hubel458's Avatar
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    The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
    that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
    and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
    long barrel NEF.

    For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
    above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
    them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
    The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
    if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
    take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
    35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
    staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
    good for 4 shots or more.

    And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
    its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
    for various other slugs and shot loads.

    In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
    1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
    and triple ought buckshot load---
    9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed


  6. #306
    Gunco Member hubel458's Avatar
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    Remember Swift 12, from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
    them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
    3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
    from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
    Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
    is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
    seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
    The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
    card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed





  7. #307
    Gunco Member hubel458's Avatar
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    In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
    gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
    12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
    charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
    about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

    And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
    And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
    than we have today, so our work is a good extension
    of what the early big bore guys did.

    And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed









  8. #308
    Gunco Member hubel458's Avatar
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    Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
    above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

    Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
    with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
    from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
    Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
    Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
    as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
    Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

    2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
    next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
    sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
    if ever available..

    3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed






  9. #309
    Gunco Member hubel458's Avatar
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    You can see 4bores,8bores,etc shooting on You Tube..ED

  10. #310
    Gunco Member hubel458's Avatar
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    Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
    called the Field I think. Looks like some other
    side levers, looks like lever works forward.

    And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
    start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
    up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
    bores only wider.

    I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
    out to the two bore size.
    And a square hole for breach block done
    in that hunk of 4130 steel.

    Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
    my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
    620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
    IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
    Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
    Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
    Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
    only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
    585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
    Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed






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