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Thread: 12GA FH--Hairy Shotgun/Rifle--

  1. #331
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    Some more slug setups and ideas.

    First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
    locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
    It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
    counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
    I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
    Shown with BPI powder cup seals.

    2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
    With corresponding length cases they were designed for.

    3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
    1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
    A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
    too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
    These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.

    4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
    58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

  2. #332
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
    First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
    They look like Berdan primed. Run from
    36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.

    Second is a paper case clad with
    thin brass nearly to the top.

    Third is picture of paper case crimped into
    the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
    pictured above with a Dixie slug.

    Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
    that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
    A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
    slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

    For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
    that have been available, for reloading guys. That
    the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
    at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
    most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
    more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
    had to work with.

    I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
    Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
    heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
    30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
    Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
    Can be loaded faster.

    No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
    than witches ---, and no time.
    I am trying to find who makes these.There are
    about 2000 injection mold companies in US

  3. #333
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
    with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
    section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
    slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
    powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
    so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
    isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
    accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
    This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
    setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
    it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
    seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
    Slug is .629" diameter.

    Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
    the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
    nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.

    Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
    Man what nice old guns.

    Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
    close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
    might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
    sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

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  5. #334
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
    like ones we want to get made for reloading.
    They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
    I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
    barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
    Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
    The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
    base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
    have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
    make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.

    Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
    different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
    I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
    All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
    near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
    cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
    test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
    the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
    system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
    and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

    What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
    weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
    sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
    That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
    Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
    percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
    cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
    disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
    The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
    both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.

    Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
    with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.

    Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
    around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
    we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
    to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
    the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
    reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
    All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
    And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
    being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
    over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
    third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
    Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

  6. #335
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
    looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
    can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
    If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
    high as others who have to set up complete machines.
    We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
    made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
    have similiar design as the ones pictured below
    but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
    with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
    what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
    With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
    Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
    We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
    58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
    as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
    58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
    The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
    and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
    40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.

    Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
    Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
    585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
    fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
    my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
    They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
    Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.

    Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
    break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
    break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
    actions like this and great value for no more
    than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
    We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
    use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
    working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
    type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
    smooth barrels.

    Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
    a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
    2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
    on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
    on nice looking slug gun.Ed

  7. #336
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    The sabots we are working with, take about 15 different
    58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
    sabot at.733" with all of them in. There are 4 Dixie
    Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
    Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
    slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

    Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
    Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
    Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
    Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
    And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
    when folks cast their own.

    I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
    suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
    quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.

    From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
    of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
    at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how
    to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
    for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
    to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
    fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in
    regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
    they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
    have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
    for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
    a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
    their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
    factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
    more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
    one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
    a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.

    Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
    we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
    the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
    an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
    to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
    setup on NEFs, and CBCs.

    Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
    and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
    Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
    all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
    and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
    extra weight.

  8. #337
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
    and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
    The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
    The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
    We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
    style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
    aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
    due the economy.

    Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
    Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
    And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
    want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.

    4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
    gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
    It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
    20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

  9. #338
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
    In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
    and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
    shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
    you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
    wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
    straight as possible for accuracy.

    Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
    velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
    which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
    slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
    of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
    sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
    fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
    with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.

    Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
    with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.

    Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the
    "Lethal" and the "destructor".

    Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
    Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

  10. #339
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    I think we found good overall sabot design that will
    be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
    and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
    It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
    but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
    for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
    using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
    which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
    of slower powder, better velocity with less case
    expansion, and more reloads possible.

    We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
    for penetration until now.. They did very well,
    two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
    timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
    Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
    for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
    Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
    nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
    that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
    Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
    and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
    way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
    we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
    bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
    leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
    compared to short fullbore ones....

    Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
    58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
    on.There are many makers and brands and styles
    of molds and weights available.

    Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
    lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
    I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
    bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
    The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
    like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
    diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

    Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
    Great looking gun..Ed

  11. #340
    Gunco Regular hubel458's Avatar
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    Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
    to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
    with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
    In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
    alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
    exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
    a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
    gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
    They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
    I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
    2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
    from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
    down to 350 gr and less.

    Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
    of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
    and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
    to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
    it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
    here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

    In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
    gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
    all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
    Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
    lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
    Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
    in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
    on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

    Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
    for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

    You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

    the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

    Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
    all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
    The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
    The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

    The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
    The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
    The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

    The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
    Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

    But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
    it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

    AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
    heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
    at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
    Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

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