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Short barreled shotgun not NFA

4K views 23 replies 14 participants last post by  buckmeister 
#1 ·
I was perusing Sturmgewehr and came across a sight selling a hand grip for a Mossburg shotgun. There claiming that you can have a 14" BBL shotgun A/O 26" and not be subject to NFA rules? The name is shockwavetechnologies, I also saw one at a gun show - short BBL shotgun made by the Turk's or Russians a while ago, has the law changed or has the BATF made a new ruling, they used to be called AOL weapons and needed papper work.
 
#3 ·
It has something to do with ability to be fired from the shoulder as I recall from an ATF bulletin, however, I can not find that bulletin any where.
 
#4 ·
Yes, it's legal in some cases. Basically, fed law defines a shotgun as a shoulder fired smoothbore firearm. With a PG, it is not shoulder fired so does not meet the Fed definition of shotgun.

Fed NFA law defines a short bbl shotgun as:
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;

Here's where the "sometimes" comes in. Mossberg and a few other companies sell their products with a PG installed at the factory, not a buttstock. Under Fed law, these are not shotguns, they are simply "firearms" with no legal sub-classification like a rifle, handgun, etc. So, if one takes one of the these factory PG shotguns, or say you can find a virgin receiver to build on, you can legally cut the bbl shorter than 18" so long as the overall length remains 26" or longer. The catch is, since Fed law defines an SBS as any "firearm made from a shotgun", it is illegal to do this to a shotgun that came from the factory with a buttstock attached since at one time the gun was indeed legally a shotgun.

AOW, or Any Other Weapon also applies, which is why the overall length must be kept over 26". The part of that law that would apply to such a gun states it must be "concealable". ATF uses 26" overall length as the test for whether or not a firearm is concealable. Keep it over, not an AOW. Go under, you need to register and pay the tax.

The main problem here is 99.999999% of LE you run across will have absolutely no idea that what you have is legal, they will see "sawed off shotgun" and arrest. In the end, you might prevail but the $200 tax looks a lot cheaper than legal bills. Also, state and local laws apply, and their definition of SBS may vary enough to cover one of these. Also note the letter below states that IF you are found actually concealing one of these bad boys, they MAY decide the AOW law applies after all, since they have actual evidence they ARE concealable. So no Doc Holiday rigs, please, or the loophole these fit in may close up fast.

ATF letters:

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/RedactedPg1.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/redactedPg2.jpg
 
#5 ·
The main problem here is 99.999999% of LE you run across will have absolutely no idea that what you have is legal, they will see "sawed off shotgun" and arrest. In the end, you might prevail but the $200 tax looks a lot cheaper than legal bills. Also, state and local laws apply, and their definition of SBS may vary enough to cover one of these. Also note the letter below states that IF you are found actually concealing one of these bad boys, they MAY decide the AOW law applies after all, since they have actual evidence they ARE concealable. So no Doc Holiday rigs, please, or the loophole these fit in may close up fast.
Agree 100% - $200 is a bonus when you think about it. You really have to ask yourself "WHY" would you want one this short other than the "look I'm a gangsta yo" cool factor.
 
#8 ·
I hunted birds for many years, and have taken a lot of hunters with me. The only two shotguns that I will not drag up here are a Mossberg, and a Remington 1100. I damn shure would not trust my life to one of those. I would rather have a regular birdgun, and two shots that I knew were going to go off. That is why I shoot Beretta's.
 
#9 ·
Frogman..

If the kernel says it is legal, it is legal. But...
I just took my Tax Stamped SBR, the one with the tractor trailer trigger pull, out too the Ocala Forest range.
Nice place good people.
When the range goes cold, self supervised, we all B.S. and talk guns.
Guy are checking out my 7 in., think it is shorty.
"Nice weapon, cool, that's illegal, is it a machine gun?" :loopeye:
Young guy, 'who wants too shoot my machine gun' and me, get too talkin.
"What do you do for work?"
"Rookie State Trooper. I never fired a machine gun, I would really like too try one."
Nice kid, was not busting my chops, he just wanted too fire a machine gun..
I spent the next hour explaining the rules of form 1s, Tax Stamps and the legal ownership of short barreled weapons and full autos.
Point here is.
The laws are so confusing, how can we expect the average L.O.s on the beat too understand them.
For the few bucks, I would SBR Tax Stamp that weapon.
If you wanted too put a stock on it later, it would be feasible.
Might be a time and hassle saver down the road for you, if your ever pulled over.
 
#10 ·
You can also register them as an AOW, if you start out with the PG version and leave the stock off. One major advantage to this is the tranfer tax is only $5, not $200. Lots easier to sell when the tax is so low, and if you can get a licensed manufacturer of NFA items to install the bbl for you for less than $195 (he makes items tax free, the business pays a single $500 tax a year to cover everything) he can then transfer to you for $5 and you save on taxes. If you make it yourself on a form 1, the $200 "making tax" is due. Where I live, SBS are illegal, AOWs are not. So I cannot own a full stocked shotgun with 17.5" bbls, but a Serbu Shorty is perfectly fine.


Super Shorty
 

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#11 ·
HMMMM me thinks if a leo dont know that a 14" barreled pistol grip firearm is legal he wont know the differance between that and a SBS,AOW , etc and he will arrest any way.

If you can buy it at the sporting good store the LEO,s need to learn what is legal thats there job. It not going to matter if it a $200, $5, or free registrtation/stamp if the LEO dont know the law your screrwed.

aside from the cool gangstsa YO bitch factor there not likely worth a shit. Honestly how many of you are actualy going to clear a room or need to pull it out of you car in self defense?????? Having one is just asking for unneeded attention IMO. gun rights aside who really needs one??? I doubt its much fun to shoot. Id rather have a 18" barrel at least it would be usable as a club if I ran out of shells.

how many have actualy fired a shot gun in a closed room??? Louder than I want to deal with.
 
#12 ·
With an SBS or AOW you will have a nice official looking document from ATF with all sorts of signatures, tax stamp, etc. on it saying you can legally own it. With a 14 "not a shotgun or AOW" firearm, at most you have a letter from ATF saying it MAY qualify as an illegal AOW depending on how ya carry it. At least with the paperwork ya got proof it's legal.
 
#13 ·
With an SBS or AOW you will have a nice official looking document from ATF with all sorts of signatures, tax stamp, etc. on it saying you can legally own it. With a 14 "not a shotgun or AOW" firearm, at most you have a letter from ATF saying it MAY qualify as an illegal AOW depending on how ya carry it. At least with the paperwork ya got proof it's legal.
I hear what your saying and I agree as long as you got all that with you and all that. Id think a recipt and the transfer papers for the 14" not shot gun would get you by (although not as safely) as well or at least keep you from staying in jail if they are infact 100% legal. either these are legal or there not, just like any fire arm. Unfortunatly the man not knowing the law can get you busted or at least detained.
 
#15 ·
I hear what your saying and I agree as long as you got all that with you and all that. Id think a recipt and the transfer papers for the 14" not shot gun would get you by (although not as safely) as well or at least keep you from staying in jail if they are infact 100% legal. either these are legal or there not, just like any fire arm. Unfortunatly the man not knowing the law can get you busted or at least detained.
Your standard 4473 doesn't have bbl length on it, the cop would just assume you cut it down after purchase. Since having the ATF paperwork is your only positive defense against getting busted with an illegal gun, every NFA owner I've heard of keeps multiple copies with the guns, in their safes, filed with their atty, etc. Lose the original and you're at the mercy of government recordkeeping, and from what I have read you only have about an 80% chance ATF still has their copy.

As the ATF letters indicate, AOW status is a grey area due to a poorly written law. "Concealable" is never defined, and ATF's 26" rule is just that, an internal "standard" with no basis in law and can be changed without notice. Concealable is highly dependant on the individual, Woody Allen trying to hide one under his coat would be laughed at for the obvious lump it made, while AHnold in his prime could probably carry one under each arm without a second glance. Woody has a legal gun, Swarzennegger has an illegal AOW and they are the same gun? Hey SCOTUS!
 
#14 ·
kernel that is interesting on the AOW, I did not know that, thank you..

biggun I agree. But their is a big difference between "should and do" know the law.
I don't hesitate too call the ATF if I have a question relating too purchase, filling out a form, or legality of weapons related issues.
100% of the time I get.
"Uh hold on, let me transfer you too Joe. Hello Joe here. Uh let me transfer you too our legal department."
"Legal Dept., whatever the hell that is, you know I really dont know. Let me take your number and get back too you."
They never ever do.
I live on a private dirt road here in Florida. Out my front door is a half million acres of National Forest.
When the kids are in school and it is safe. We set up a secure backstop and test our weapons.
The older Sheriffs don't give a damn, but the younger ones fly down here and tell us we cant do that.
Well under Florida's new weapons laws, oh hell yes we legally can.
So a new, John Wayne Sheriff fly's down here and says "No we cant, stop."
Half hour debate goes on, yes, no, yes, no. I am rite you are wrong.
I end the debate when he says.
"I am going too arrest you for P.O.P."
What the hell is P.O.P.?"
Pissing Off Police. :lol:
We ended with a good laugh, handshake and he went on his way.
How can we expect the L.O.s on the beat too know the law, when the ATF making the laws, don't even know the law?
 
#20 ·
Per the link above the pic Super Shorty $925 + $25 shipping. Used should be a few bucks cheaper, I would imagine. You could also buy your own Mossberg Cruiser for cheap and Form 1 it and do the work yourself. Drawback is the making tax is $200 versus the $5 transfer tax buying it from a dealer. OTOH, a $250 shotgun and the tax is still a far cry from $955.
 
#22 ·
Went into a pawn shop about 15+ years ago and asked to see the 410 Snake Charmer in the rack. Shop owner bought it with the thumb hole stock sawed off and the pistol grip was duct taped. I was a regular customer. Told him it was an illegal weapon and he argued that the barrel was 18 inches. I agreed but informed him the OAL was less than 26 inches. Jokingly told him I would call the ATF unless he gave me a screw driver and a good price. I disassembled the pistol grip and barrel from the receiver had him throw the pistol grip in the trash and paid $25. Did the paper work and left with bag of parts. Ended up buying a reject Cricket stock added on an order from Numrich GPC. Made a legal length butt and made a new forend for cheap. Used it as a salt water boat gun. BTW don't ask about 400 series stainless steel, salt water and rust.
 
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