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Thread: One Of The NSA's Original Whistleblowers Says The Goal Is 'Total Population Control'

  1. #11
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    do you believe obama?
    I know your not that stupid LOL dont even go there suggesting I am a obama supporter an for the record it was not obama that started all this DHS nSA another crap

  2. #12
    Gunco Good ole boy kernelkrink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
    So this never happened ????????

    List of unsuccessful terrorist plots in the United States post-9/11 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





    List of unsuccessful terrorist plots in the United States post-9/11
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    After the initiation of the War on Terrorism following the attacks of September 11, 2001, several Islamic terrorist plots aimed at civilian and military targets have failed to succeed. The following is a list of unsuccessful Islamic terrorist plots in the Post-9/11 United States.

    Major snippage!
    Well, the first guy on your list was the "shoe bomber", PASSENGERS noticed him trying to light a fuse and stopped him. No NSA involvement, if there was they would have arrested him BEFORE he tried to give himself a hotfoot! Ditto for the "underwear bomber". The assertion made was that the NSA eavesdropping program that sucks in every phone call has not prevented an attack, so far AFAIK no official has EVER said "we stopped this because the NSA intercepted a conversation". Nothing in what you posted has "NSA" in it that I can find with word search.

    Have terror plots been uncovered and foiled? Yep, and a lot of them were of the Feds own making. The ones I recall reading about had undercover agents or informants in most cases. It usually goes like this: Someone is pissed off about something and is vocal about "doing something". Someone turns him in and the LEOs start investigating. Pretty soon they realize while he may be willing, he has no idea how to build bombs, obtain the materials, etc. So they introduce him to an "explosives expert" and fellow pissed off person who just happens to be an undercover agent or paid informant cooperating with them. So they have hours of video and audio tapes of these guys planning, fake materials and bombs are obtained and built with the undercover holding his hand the whole time, and then when the guy gets ready to execute his plan the feds and news crews sweep in and toss him in jail.

    "Terror plot uncovered, film at eleven" and the FBI and DHS gets a more $$$ for their war on terror. And no NSA involvement to be seen anywhere.

  3. #13
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Well, the first guy on your list was the "shoe bomber", PASSENGERS noticed him trying to light a fuse and stopped him. No NSA involvement, if there was they would have arrested him BEFORE he tried to give himself a hotfoot! Ditto for the "underwear bomber". The assertion made was that the NSA eavesdropping program that sucks in every phone call has not prevented an attack, so far AFAIK no official has EVER said "we stopped this because the NSA intercepted a conversation". Nothing in what you posted has "NSA" in it that I can find with word search.

    Have terror plots been uncovered and foiled? Yep, and a lot of them were of the Feds own making. The ones I recall reading about had undercover agents or informants in most cases. It usually goes like this: Someone is pissed off about something and is vocal about "doing something". Someone turns him in and the LEOs start investigating. Pretty soon they realize while he may be willing, he has no idea how to build bombs, obtain the materials, etc. So they introduce him to an "explosives expert" and fellow pissed off person who just happens to be an undercover agent or paid informant cooperating with them. So they have hours of video and audio tapes of these guys planning, fake materials and bombs are obtained and built with the undercover holding his hand the whole time, and then when the guy gets ready to execute his plan the feds and news crews sweep in and toss him in jail.

    "Terror plot uncovered, film at eleven" and the FBI and DHS gets a more $$$ for their war on terror. And no NSA involvement to be seen anywhere.
    A lot of truth there I suspect a lot of the how an why our government has foiled a few of these plots can not be discussed an i suspect that NSA has no need to clue us or terrorists to how they do it .

    I agree a lot of these wanna be terrorists are caught by being set up in the manner you described I have even said almost the exact same thing .

    Im not for all our calls being monitored but I also doubt that if they are, that there have been zero arrests made If not there not trying very hard . I could likely make 20 drug busts from a lot of the texts an calls made by people at the bar i was at the other night.LOL If there listening then they hear criminal stuff every minute of the day .

    I doubt the NSA feels any need to share with the media or us there activites . Im not condoning there actions but Id be willing to bet a lot of the bust above had a helping hand from the NSA in some form or another . I suspect that we will never know how guys especially terrorist get caught an in way that might be a good thing.i don't need to know what in area 51 or other top secret facilities . I just hope an pray they are keeping americans safe if not there not much im going to about it .

    Kernel As always I respect an consider your level headed opinion .

  4. #14
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    interesting reading an some what supports my suspicions that the NSA does give out Info to Leos to some degree



    NSA: PRISM stopped NYSE attack - Josh Gerstein - POLITICO.com

    an

    DEA secretly uses NSA to prosecute crime | Americas | DW.DE | 04.09.2013

  5. #15
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    from the second link above. Im not saying its true .


    DEA secretly uses NSA to prosecute crime
    Recent national security leaks have focused on NSA mass surveillance aimed at stopping acts of terrorism. But law enforcement may be secretly using information from intelligence agencies to prosecute organized crime.
    Michael Flanagan, assistant special agent in charge, of the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), speaks on a phone outside the office of Dr. Conrad Murray in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, on 28 July 2009. The DEA, in assisting Los Angeles Police Department with regard to Michael Jackson's death, has issued a search warrant to gather documents and evidence at the doctor's office. Police raided the home of Michael Jackson's personal doctor on 28 July, tightening their focus on the physician who reportedly gave the late superstar sedatives that may have killed him. The raid of the Las Vegas home of Dr Conrad Murray came a day after sources in the investigation told US news media that investigators believe Murray gave Jackson a dose of the hospital anesthetic propofol hours before Jackson died of cardiac arrest. Celebrity website TMZ.com, which is known for its excellent police sources in Los Angeles, reported that Murray told investigators he gave Jackson propofol, and that authorities believe he simply wasn't paying attention when Jackson's heart stopped. EPA/RONDA CHURCHILL +++(c) dpa - Bildfunk+++
    A special unit of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) has allegedly gleaned information from National Security Agency (NSA) surveillance programs to prosecute drug traffickers and organized crime, in a possible demonstration of growing cooperation between normal law enforcement and the US national security establishment.
    According to reporting by the Reuters news agency, the DEA's Special Operations Division (SOD) sanitizes classified information for use by prosecutors in the US judicial system. But investigators are told to cover up the SOD's footprint on cases through a technique called "parallel reconstruction." The technique fakes the origins of sensitive information, giving the impression that SOD tips come from a different source.
    The practice has raised concern that defendants are being denied basic constitutional rights to review the evidence against them. Some civil libertarians are also worried that SOD activities demonstrate an expansion of the national security and intelligence agencies' involvement in the normal criminal justice system.
    According to William C. Banks, law enforcement agencies such as the DEA are allowed to use evidence obtained through the NSA's PRISM surveillance program, so long as certain conditions are met. The practice is based on a lax interpretation of the US constitution's fourth amendment, which normally protects against unreasonable search and seizure.
    "The lower courts and the special FISA court have held that so long as the purpose of the surveillance is to collect foreign intelligence, then the protections of the fourth amendment are relaxed, because the intelligence collection itself does not anticipate the kind of criminal prosecution that would trigger more rigorous fourth amendment scrutiny," Banks, director of the Institute for National Security and Counterterrorism at Syracuse University, told DW.
    The fall of the wall
    In the wake of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, poor coordination between law enforcement and intelligence agencies came under intense public scrutiny. Prior to the attacks, a so-called wall had restricted law enforcement officials from accessing relevant information gathered by intelligence agencies for use in criminal prosecutions.
    U.S. Attorney General Eric H. Holder stands in front of a U.S. Department of Justice backdrop during a press conference at the Department of Justice in Washington, DC, USA, 25 February 2009. Holder announced the arrest of more than 750 individuals on narcotics-related charges and the seizure of more than 23 tons of narcotics as part of a 21-month multi-agency law enforcement investigation known as 'Operation Xcellerator'. The operation targeted the Sinaloa Cartel, a major Mexican drug trafficking organisation. EPA/MICHAEL REYNOLDS +++(c) dpa - Report+++
    The Justice Department handles all applications to the FISA court
    This "wall" was intended to prevent law enforcement officials from using FISA as a loophole around the fourth amendment in traditional criminal cases. But many law enforcement, intelligence, and elected officials blamed restricted information sharing for the failure to uncover the 9/11 plot.
    In 2001, Congress passed the Patriot Act, which amended FISA to loosen the restrictions that had prevented greater cooperation between the law enforcement and intelligence communities. The attorney general at the time, John Ashcroft, filed new guidelines with the FISA court to implement the Patriot Act and promote information sharing. But the court rejected Ashcroft's proposal. It was the first time that the secretive judicial body had dismissed a government application in its history.
    The government appealed, forcing the FISA Court of Review to convene for the first time. Ultimately, the Court of Review ruled in 2002 that the government's guidelines were indeed valid, striking down the "wall" for good and opening the door to greater cooperation among law enforcement and intelligence.
    "The special FISA court had agreed that, so long as there was also an intelligence purpose to gathering the material, the fact that evidence of crime was collected as well did not stand in the way of using that information in criminal prosecutions," Banks said.
    Growth of metadata
    But in the decade since the September 11 attacks, the government's ability to collect telecommunications data has expanded, raising questions about the degree to which law enforcement can access this massive trove of information for criminal prosecutions.
    epa03809713 (FILE) A file video grab courtesy of British The Guardian newspaper, London 10 June 2013 showing former CIA employee Edward Snowden during an exclusive interview with the newspaper's Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras in Hong kong. Media reports on 01 August 2013 state that US whistleblower Edward Snowden has left Moscow airport after he has been granted temporary asylum in Russia in a statement by his lawyer. EPA/GLENN GREENWALD / LAURA POITRAS / HANDOUT MANDATORY CREDIT: GUARDIAN / GLENN GREENWALD / LAURA POITRAS, HANDOUT EDITORIAL USE ONLY/NO SALES
    Snowden's leaks have revealed the growing use of metadata by intelligence agencies
    While this surveillance is officially directed at non-US persons, metadata of people in the US can get incidentally picked up. The NSA has so-called minimization procedures, which call for data relating to US persons to be destroyed.
    But according to national security law expert Laura Donohue, these minimization procedures allow the NSA to retain incidentally obtained information on criminal activity. Donohue is the director of Georgetown University's Center on National Security and the Law.
    "The problem is that the minimization procedures include using any information about criminal activity they may uncover," Donohue told DW in an interview originally published on July 10.
    "So now what it's become is an end run around the fourth amendment, where there is no warrant required to collect the information, to find criminal behavior and then to prosecute," she said.
    Covering up the tracks
    The NSA has openly acknowledged that it cooperates with law enforcement. But the agency has denied that law enforcement has access to it database of phone records, according to Reuters.
    "This coordination frequently includes sanitizing classified information so that it can be passed to personnel at lower clearance levels in order to meet their operational requirements," the NSA wrote in a statement published by Reuters.
    "If the Intelligence Community collects information pursuant to a valid foreign intelligence tasking that is recognized as being evidence of a crime, the intelligence community can disseminate that information to law enforcement, as appropriate."
    FT. MEADE, MD - UNDATED: (FILE PHOTO) This undated photo provided by the National Security Agency (NSA) shows its headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland. The NSA has been secretly collecting the phone call records of millions of Americans, using data provided by telecom firms AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, the newspaper USA Today reported on May 11, 2006. (Photo by NSA via Getty Images)
    NSA information is "sanitized" for use by criminal prosecutors
    According to the Reuters' report, sanitization includes covering up the origins of information obtained and used in criminal cases. Through parallel reconstruction, the involvement of a secretive unit such as the DEA's Special Operations Division is then hidden. The official purpose is to protect sources and methods.
    "In many cases, such as the DEA program..., it's likely that the intelligence that was collected that led to the evidence of crime was collected by some other agency for intelligence gathering purposes and turned over to the DEA after the fact," Banks said.
    Defense attorneys have expressed concern that this process of sanitization and parallel reconstruction denies their clients access to evidence which could help their cases. Banks said these attorneys need to start filing motions to have secretly obtained information turned over to them.
    "What's got to happen here, it will be quickly known if it isn't already, that defense council needs to make these motions any time when it can conceivably be the case that that information is available," Banks said. "Then it's incumbent on the court to make the demand of the government and for the government to say whether or not there is such surveillance."
    DW RECOMMENDS

    Obama turns WWI-era law against leakers
    During WWI, President Wilson signed off on the Espionage Act, in a bid to keep a lid on German spies in the US. But 96 years later, President Obama is using the act to aggressively prosecute leaks to the press. (12.08.2013)
    Obama takes offensive on reforming NSA spying
    US President Barack Obama covered plans to make the country's surveillance programs more transparent and also touched on recalibrating the United States' difficult relationship with Russia. (10.08.2013)
    Extend First Amendment to whistleblowers
    In the Internet age the old protection of whistleblowers via traditional media is insufficient to shield them from excessive prosecution. That’s why the First Amendment protection must be extended, argues Andy Sellars. (01.08.2013)
    Date 04.09.2013

  6. #16
    Gunco Good ole boy kernelkrink's Avatar
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    With all the publicity NSA has gotten about their eavesdropping on US cellphones, it's hardly a secret. With all the criticism about it, you would think if they did have any cases where their surveillance was a deciding factor they would be saying "Look, we saved thousands of lives on this date because we intercepted a conversation between X and Y, plotting to blow up Z and stopped them because of it. Now leave us alone and let us do our job." Haven't heard it yet. Doing so would be of no use as counter-intel for the bad guys, and give them a much needed spin on their activities.

  7. #17
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    you would think if they did have any cases where their surveillance was a deciding factor they would be saying "Look, we saved thousands of lives on this date because we intercepted a conversation between X and Y, plotting to blow up Z and stopped them because of it. Now leave us alone and let us do our job." Haven't heard it yet.
    A very valid point an one I had considered some . No argument.

    We all know there collecting Info I don't buy into its for later when we take over the country. Some of this info has to be used either for the good or the bad of this country I just dont buy there sut collecting an not doing anything ..

    Im sure If I had there info I could make a million arrests .

    Im sure I dont have the answers here but I do think some were some how some oft he info gets used some were . for what ill likely never know .

  8. #18
    Gunco Good ole boy kernelkrink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
    A very valid point an one I had considered some . No argument.

    We all know there collecting Info I don't buy into its for later when we take over the country. Some of this info has to be used either for the good or the bad of this country I just dont buy there sut collecting an not doing anything ..

    Im sure If I had there info I could make a million arrests .

    Im sure I dont have the answers here but I do think some were some how some oft he info gets used some were . for what ill likely never know .
    We do know. In a normal criminal case that doesn't involve terrorism and the Patriot Act, the info acquired from the NSA would likely be considered a violation of the 4th Amendment. As such, any arrest resulting from it would be tossed. "Tainted fruits of the poisonous tree". Which is why when the NSA does share info on normal cases with DEA or whomever, they are instructed to outright lie about the source so their involvement and illegal wiretapping is never an issue in court. How many times has this happened? No way of knowing, but putting a guy away for selling cocaine is hardly preventing terrorism, which is what this program supposedly exists for. For that purpose, revealing the source of the info is not an issue as the Patriot Act tosses a whole lot of protections aside in the name of fighting terrorism. An FBI agent can literally write his own search warrant for your data by simply filling out a National Security Letter and presenting it to whoever has your data. NSA has your data.

    So that is why NSA isn't saying "Hey, we taped two guys discussing a drug shipment last month and a week later we intercepted 7 tons of Coke and arrested 4 guys because of it." To do so would get the case tossed because there is no National Security interest to trigger the Patriot Act nullification of your rights. OTOH, saying we taped two guys discussing blowing up something and caught them with a truck full of explosives because of it" would not be an issue.

  9. #19
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Yea I hear you .A lot of it is when a cop know a person or group are guilty but they have to make there case with half the evidence tossed an a lot is a downright violation of our rights.

    Like I said If a normal Pd department had there info they could make a million arrests.

    My gut tells me that when major crime is going on a littel birdy tells the right person an so on .
    As far as there cyber security to keep the country an our defenses safe I just hope we are getting some of our moneys worth .

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