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Thread: 8mm AK... how hard could it be??

  1. #21
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1biggun
    (ever since I found this web site I spend hours in a poorly lit room with a pile of kits a box full of empty misc brass that I stole from my 6 year old and a Mic, calipers and a tape measure and this damm computer)

  2. #22
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Yeah I have to agree with the magazines - those Madsen mags are the way to go. It looks like you'll have to braze or weld some lugs onto the magazine anyway, so why not do it with the cheap ones - $5 apiece from ima-usa.com looks like a winner to me!

  3. #23
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Rhino_66 that was the .50 cal round I was thinking of on meppers gun thanks for finding that site. http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/857mmmau.php is a good site for 8mm loads some are pretty light. I want to do the 8mm in a pistol for hunting with a real heavy bullet. I want good knock down power out to 200 yards a 200 grain would be good. I have a friend who has a modern 8mm mauser comercial built and and his safe hot loads do very well against my30-06 I like the madsen mag Idea I am going to order one on monday. wonder how wide they are. the price is right. going to look for material for my milled Yugo kit monday for the 308 conversion

  4. #24
    Gunco Slightly Irregular cammobunker's Avatar
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    HA! While looking for something else entirely......7X57 BAR mags....$5.00 a pop!
    Go here look for MAGAZINE, BAR MODEL D 7mm
    http://www.ssporters.com/MiscParts.htm
    "All right, you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick!"
    -Ash, Army of Darkness
    "There are two kinds of people in this world, Tuco.
    Those with loaded guns,
    and those who dig. You dig."
    -Blondie, The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

  5. #25
    RIP Sangrun Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cammobunker
    HA! While looking for something else entirely......7X57 BAR mags....$5.00 a pop!
    Go here look for MAGAZINE, BAR MODEL D 7mm
    http://www.ssporters.com/MiscParts.htm

    Cool! Man I can't wait to go to Knob creek again this spring. There are so many tables full of bins with all kind of gun parts from the past 100 years. I got so many ideas and things I am looking for now.

  6. #26
    Gunco Veteran SA58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcpookie
    Here are my thoughts (for free)...

    I agree with the other posts that the use of the .308 Saiga would require some fitting since the bullet is longer. IT would be more accurate to compare this to a 7.62x54R - the Dragunov and PKM round - instead of a .308 round.

    Let's assume you're going the full route, with a pistol grip conversion to restore the Saiga to its intended form. Let's also assume you're going to do "whatever it takes" to make it work.

    Magazine fit.
    I am not sure that it would be a good idea to "create" the extra clearance by grinding down the trunion. Therefore, I would consider moving the trigger guard back. Obviously, judicious dremel work on the magazine well area would be necessary for whatever magazine fit you require.

    You would most likely need to enlarge the magazine well front-to-back and maybe relocate the trigger guard back. I would weld up the existing holes, then redrill brand new trigger guard holes. If the distance is enough, you could relocate it by removing it, using the two existing rear rivet holes for the front of the trigger guard, and drill two more rivet holes for the rear holes.

    That would give you a bit less room in front of the trigger, but not my much. If you had to move it no more than about 1/8 - 3/16" then I doubt you would even notice the difference unless you wore gloves or had real fat fingers!

    Bolt & Trunion.
    The .308 is over-engineered for the larger round. Of course, so is the AK for the 7.62x39 round. I would have to dig out my ROMAK-3 parts to look more closely, but looking through the plastic, the bolt looks just like a 7.62x39 bolt with an RPK/Yugo style trunion.

    Assuming that's true, two conclusions can be drawn - you should have enough meat to accomodate the 8mm round if you convert, and OTOH a $100 Yugo kit could be employed without needing to retrofit a more expensive gun. Point being, that maybe a parts kit conversion would be better?

    Ejector.
    The same would be true for the ejector. You'd *probably* be OK using a default .308 ejector, but if not you could relocate the Saiga ejector back by grinding the front. You may consider even putting a weld bead on the back just to give it some more meat.

    Gas port.
    A bigger hole would mean more gas bleed, meaning more kick and a more energetic (read: violent) cycle. The higher-power round may need a smaller gas port to keep the action from cycling so harshly. I'd consider a recoil buffer as well.

    Ammo.
    8mm ammo is like any other full-power round. You have your ammo and then you have your HOT ammo. HOT ammo as in on the right side of the reloading charts. HOT ammo that is good for a thick machine gun or bolt-action weapon. I'm sure we probably have all read about old chambers failing due to crappy ammo of different calibers. I can think of threads I've read about 7.62x25, .308, .303, and 7.62x54R issues. I'd be real hesitant to shoot just any old ammo through it, since you could have some safety issues there. Reloads would give good control of course, but if you find a good ammo selection I'd buy a bunch and stick to it.

    I could almost guarantee that all 8mm ammo is corrosive... dunno about that, but something to consider. A nice SS piston from hotbarrel would be a must-have part IMO.


    US parts - the parts count is obviously an issue, and that would be easier with a parts kit conversion, since the Saiga would need a piston (1), FCG (2,3,4), pistol grip (5), and then the 6th part from wherever - muzzle brake? US buttstock? Floorplate?


    Other than those issues, I'm at a loss as to what else I would consider for the conversion. Could it be done? Sure - if not then the Yugo M76 would have never been built!
    Seems like the biggest problem to me is the bolt and trunnion. I need a meaty enough bolt for the round, that's long enough for the round and a trunnion to match the bolt. The rest is do-able. Blank for a reciever. Mags can be modified/welded/whatever to work. But the bolt is the part that has me scratching my head... I don't think a 7.62x39 bolt is meaty enough, and I know it's not long enough. To bad a body can't just order spare parts from the zastava factory.
    ...I'm not tense! Just terribly, terribly alert.

  7. #27
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    It would be nice to determine CUP pressure, and if it is close to a .308 or a 7.62x39, then I would say the bolt has enough meat out of the box. Would definitely be something I would consider building from a heavy RPK-style receiver just for that extra bit of security. Of course, the "hang time" on a semi is pretty low, so I think the pressure would bleed off fast enough that you would be OK.

    Judging from the M76 pics, I am confident that it would work, would just need to get that CUP pressure info before you begin.

  8. #28
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Im using a yugo m70 bolt on my 308 conversion. if its heavy enough for that it should handel a a 8mm with a lower cup pressure. some were on this site I read that the M76 ( 8mm mauser) was a 2 lug bolt and trunion set up. bolt length is a issue with the 8mm round I was thinking of extending the bolt and pin out some how. as far as grinding the trunion it would only need to be widend slightly to get a mag to fit it if at all with a m14 mag see sangs posts on the 308 conversion forum. moving the trigger guard and latch is almost a given. I am planing to move the latch piviot back aprox a 1/4" and rework the spring (well the whole guard) and take another 1/4" out of the guard its self this will leave pleanty of finger clearance. ( this on the 308 conv) Bolt face and extracter will need to be opened up as well. the 8mm round is only 6mm longer than the 308 if one were to take say 2mm out of the trunion and 4 more out of the trigger guard mag latch area it the rest would be the same as a 308 conversion. I make my own recivers so moving the trigger group back or the trunion forward is a option as well. If a longer bolt was avaliable I would just make a 3/4" longer reciver moving the front trunion forward. (I made my jig extra long already HEE HEE) as far as gas block and gas port hole size I would go with a L1A1 adjustable gas block and tune it to work with what ever ammo you find cheap. I would not use a Sagia 308 as a starting point when a Yugo kit is only $100 dollars and you are going to not use the barrel. why wreck a 308 Saiga when the whole gun can be built for less than what the Saiga cost to start with? Yugo kit aprox $100 8mm mauser barrel on ebay $15 or less US parts$60 Mags $2.00-$25 reciever blank $15depending what you go with say aprox $250 for all. having a 8mm or other custom calibur you built yourself priceless

  9. #29
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    FYI:

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=34068

    7x57 Mauser: 46,000 CUP
    .303 British: 45,000 CUP
    8x57 Mauser: 37,000 CUP (SAAMI, artificially limited for commercial liability)
    8x57 Mauser: 50,000 CUP (As loaded in Europe, commercial and military)


    http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/p...=6429&trail=15

    150 Grain Speer Soft Point:
    CASE Winchester Primers: Winchester LR
    COL 2.945"

    IMR Powders:

    4831 47.0 2325 fps 36,800 CUP
    4350 43.0 2315 fps 36,800 CUP
    4320 36.0 2270 fps 36,900 CUP
    4064 36.0 2305 fps 37,000 CUP
    4895 36.0 2310 fps 37,000 CUP
    3031 34.5 2335 fps 37,000 CUP
    4198 28.5 2225 fps 37,000 CUP



    http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

    7.62x51 = +/- 52,000 CUP.

    Moral of the story - "Military" loads are around 50,000 cup. Both should be doable in a .308 Saiga style build (thicker receiver). The bolt head concerns me too. I think you would be OK, but that extra metal on a Saiga .308 conversion would make me feel much better when I put that up to my face when shooting...

  10. #30
    Gunco Veteran SA58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcpookie

    Moral of the story - "Military" loads are around 50,000 cup. Both should be doable in a .308 Saiga style build (thicker receiver). The bolt head concerns me too. I think you would be OK, but that extra metal on a Saiga .308 conversion would make me feel much better when I put that up to my face when shooting...

    ...see, that's what I was thinking.. peace of mind. The bolt on a standard M70 might not fly apart today.. .might not fly apart tomorrow... but it seems to me they designed it beefier on the larger caliber versions for a reason. M70 trunnion.. no problem with. It's all about the bolt.

    As far as a lot of money put into a conversion vs scratch build.. I don't think I'd be saving money starting out from scratch with a dark-bore M70 kit. I'm thinking by the time I get done screwing around trying to lengthen a bolt.. make this work, make that work.. it will have just been easier to rebarrel a .30-06 or .308 Saiga in 8mm and work out a mag that will feed... half the engineering is already done for me. Now... if I could lay my hands on a bolt, carrier and trunnion for an 8mm, .30-06 or etc... then I'd say sure, sign me up for a dark bore kit.

    Anyway... still just working it out on paper before I commit to actually working on this... all this information is really helpfull btw. I've went ahead and ordered some mags from IMA to see how they look as a sign of my being comitted to finding a solution.
    ...I'm not tense! Just terribly, terribly alert.

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