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'Confederate' AK in .36 caliber (9x39mm)

10K views 53 replies 15 participants last post by  Story 
#1 ·
As a spinoff of this thread, is anyone familiar with the GUNS OF THE SOUTH?
(See this thread http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8039 )

I was toying with what would an AK built under mid-19th century conditions be like?
The steel mags are basically doable at that time.
The receiver, milled.
The round a .36 caliber (9mm x 39) loaded with patched lead rounds and black powder.
This caliber is already used in Russian special purpose weapons like the VSS (albeit with FMJ rounds).
Cartridge
Metric designation
Bullet weight, g
Muzzle velocity, m/s
comments

9mm SP-5
9x39
16.8
280
Subsonic ball
9mm SP-6
9x39
16
280
Subsonic AP
See also
http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17092

The barrel would need to be at least 20" long, to wring the most out of the black powder.
The front sight base and gas chamber in cast brass.
The finish non-existent (as period arms can "armory bright")
The bayonet a socket type with spike blade (like a Mosin Nagant's)
All furniture of wood, not laminated.
The rear buttstock longer, with a brass buttplate and a definative wrist ( like the SMLE's).

And it'd be engraved with something like Tredegar Iron Works Self-Loading Carbine, calibre .36
:brows:
 
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#37 ·
That's cheatin! General Lee only had the Holy Black(powder)!!! :nono:

Seriously, a Norinco Hunter would be a good basis for this project : milled receiver, 20" barrel (fit a Mosin 1891 socket bayonet to it), already set up for a straight stock w/o pistol grip....

Jus' sayin'
 
#45 ·
Norinco imported a handful of muzzle loading SKS right after the AW ban started. There are a couple of web sites describing them. I guess it shows even the faceless billions of Communist China can have a sense of humor...
I HAVE SEEN ONE FOR SALE ON GB A WHILE BACK.

THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL AK MUZZEL LOADERS BUILT. SOME WERE I DOWN LOADED AND PRINTED PICS OF ONE A FEW YEARS BACK.

I WILL DO A MUSSEL LOADER BARREL AT SOME POINT FOR MY SWITCH BARREL BUILD JUST FOR GIGGLSES AND ALSO THERE IS A MUZZEL LOADING SEASON HERE SO WHAT THE HELL. i WAS THINKING OF MAKING THE MAG A STORAGE COMPARTMENT FOR THE BALL AND POWDER. IT WOULD BE A SUPER EASY BUILD.

IT COULD BE DONE ALSO WITH OUT A FACTORY TRUNION JUST NEED A BLOCK TO HOLD THE BARREL. A GUY COULD LIKELY LOOSE THE BOLT AND CARRIER AS WELL WITH A LITTLE INGINUITY. JUST MAKE THE HAMMER FIRE THE CAP AND FIGURE OUT A WAY INSTALL A CAP. THEN THE BARREL COULD BE SLID BACK FURTHER MAKING THE NEEDED LONGER BARREL LOOK SHORTER.

ON A BENT BLANK WITH A HOME MADE TRUNION AN NO BOLT OR CARRER A GUY COULD BUILD ONE OF THESE FOR LESS THAN $100 WITH A LITTLE SHOPPING. THERE WERE BARRELS ON NUMRICH FOR AROUND $30. IT WOULD BE A GOOD SPARE PARTS BUILD. TAKE A ORIGINAL FGC, A DUST COVER AND A BENT BLANK AND SOME INGINUITY AND IT WOULD BE REALLY SIMPLE TO DO.
 
#49 ·
Mannlicher introduced several automatic rifle designs that were unsuccessful, but ahead of their time. He introduced fundamental principles that were used by later designers, often successfully.
Mannlicher's Model 85 semi automatic gun used his recoil operated action originally developed in 1883; it anticipated the recoiling barrel system used later in designs like the German MG 34 and MG 42 machineguns, and the M1941 Johnson machine gun. The Model 85 would have fit the same tactical role as the American BAR or British Bren of World War II fame.
The Model 91 semi-automatic rifle was designed to use the 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge and the Model 88 rifle clip. Like the Model 85 it was a recoil operated action like the later Remington Model 8 and M1941 Johnson rifle.
Ferdinand Mannlicher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MANNLICHER - Google Patents


http://www.cruffler.com/MannlicherModel1900SelfLoadingRifle1.gif

http://www.earmi.it/armi/atlas2/612.gif

A 7.62x54R action (FPK/PSL/Romak) on a milled receiver would be an interesting start.
 
#47 ·
For some reason I didn't copy the pictures of the BP SKS to my SKS directory. But putting the cap on the nipple looked like it would require tweezers or needle-nose pliers, since it had to be done through the (former) ejection port.
 
#50 ·
Hello Story,
Yes, baron von Mannlicher was a true genius and way ahead of the curve back then. He designed over 150 models of auto and repeating firearms in the last quarter of the 1800's. His blow-forward barrel pistols have intrigued me a lot especially after hearing rumors of the system being used in a WW-II German prototype assaul rifle.

VD
 
#54 ·
His blow-forward barrel pistols have intrigued me a lot especially after hearing rumors of the system being used in a WW-II German prototype assaul rifle.
Good - now buy a dirt cheap 8mm Steyr straight-pull (1895), fit it with a 7.62 Mosin barrel (1891), one of those Finnish 25 round magazines Magazine, 7.62 x 53R, 20 Round, Blued, Original Finnish Mfg., VG to Exc and your own gas system.

Bet you could even pull a PSL gas block and tube, mount it 90 degrees to the right and make it work. :woot:
 
#52 ·
In the Civil War era you had the following processes available:

gun drilling
rifling
tracer milling
investment casting (brass and steel)
riveting
hammer forging
sheet metal rolling
sheet metal stamping

That's more than enough to build an AK-47.

Ferrous metallurgy and heat treatment weren't an exact science back then; you picked the ore and the smelting process, selected a foundry to match, and worked out the heat treatment by guess and by gosh and experience. All lost arts now, but a production engineer of the 1850s wouldn't have needed long to sort things out.


Deep drawn brass cases were known at the time. The suggested .36 caliber would require less of a bottleneck and would probably work better with black powder.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, analyzing and duplicating a nitrocellulose-based smokeless powder would have been beyond the chemistry of the 1860s. Nitroglycerine was known at the time, and had any rounds loaded with Cordite been available, it would have been simple enough to analyze and duplicate them. However, unless someone specially loaded some x39 with Cordite and gave it to them as a sample, they'd use black powder.

The mercuric primers of the time would work. Analysis and manufacture of chlorate primers would have been within their capability.


Having read "The Guns of the South" (which wasn't really one of Turtledove's better efforts) I think the part about the Confederacy developing their own AK was just some throwaway padding in a sluggish story that was already repetitious and slow. However, whether by diligent research or by accident, he was right - it was within the capability of the Confederacy to do it.

The South Africans had brought in AKs and ammunition by the containerload. Davis and Lee began to wonder about their ally's motives, and whether the supply of arms might be cut off, which is what led to the "Confederate-made AK" scene. But Lee had plenty of AKs by then; all he really needed to worry about was a continuing supply of ammunition, so making their own AKs made no sense given the scenario. On the other hand, why should the Confederate government have had any more sense than the Federals...
 
#53 ·
Lee had plenty of AKs by then; all he really needed to worry about was a continuing supply of ammunition, so making their own AKs made no sense given the scenario.
Context for this being the Spencer carbines captured by the Confederates were only useful until the immediate supply of cartridges ran out, since Confederate arsenals were unable to set up their own production lines (more for lack of material, IIRC).
 
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