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Thread: 'Confederate' AK in .36 caliber (9x39mm)

  1. #41
    Citizen, Patriot, Ranger bellson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRX View Post
    Somewhere on YouTube there's a clip of someone blowing through a magazine of BP reloads in an AK. Looked like a fog bank, but it made it through at least one magazine with no misfires, stovepipes, FTEs, or FTFs.

    The AK's gas system is *very* forgiving; it's virtually the same in OEM calibers from .35 Remington to .30-'06 and 7.62x54R. The only time they needed to change it was for the Saiga shotguns.

    I am with TRX on this one. The AK gas system can take an EXTREME amount of fouling. In fact, I personally think you could go 500+ rounds of BP or Pyrodex before any issues. I would be more wary of something like lead fouling (assuming un-jacketed bullets) or chamber fouling before I would go to the gas system. Springs and all of that would need to be researched to determine the right combo. And that means math and good old fashioned trial and error. Mikhail himself admitted to a great deal of redesign based on trial and error. I would say that that is one reason that the AK has been so successful....Real world testing, and numbskull methods to prove or disprove the reliability and resilience of the system as a whole. In other words, FOOLPROOF TESTING.

    I always prefer to describe the SKS and AK as weapons that were designed to be operated by superstitious, illiterate peasants. I think it is true. And I think that this is the basis of the legend and the reality of the AK system. Shear numbers aside, name any one weapons system that is as adaptable, as reliable, as easy to operate and maintain as the AK. I own them all. I love each of them for their own reasons. And try as I might, I still can not improve on the AK for simple...For reliable...For accurate as the round it fires...For knock down within the designed envelope. Our best body armor is still not proof against 7.62x39 within 100 meters. Still needs plates. Plates do not protect 100%.....

    So, back to a Confederate AK....It is doable, I believe it would work. I think that 9x39 would be a great starting point. Add in a chrome lined bore....I would take that to war. The reported smoke-screen might just be useful.....
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    Bellson

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    Citizen, Patriot, Ranger bellson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRX View Post
    Norinco imported a handful of muzzle loading SKS right after the AW ban started. There are a couple of web sites describing them. I guess it shows even the faceless billions of Communist China can have a sense of humor...
    Now that is news to me! I have never heard of this before....Going Google....

    Post anything you have to better inform us..Really interested in learning more. What a hoot!
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    Bellson

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRX View Post
    You know, thinking about it, though the AK-47 itself would be a big step forward, the *bigger* step forward would be from examining its ammunition. Figure they'd be using corrosive milsurp ammo... that's potassium chlorate primers, very nearly the perfect priming compound - cheap, virtually insensitive to extremes of temperature, and doesn't degrade over time, like the old mercuric and some new non-lead, non-corrosive primers. The CSA wouldn't care about it being corrosive; all their primers were corrosive anyway. And the best thing is, the chlorate priming compound is simple enough that 1860s chemists could identify and duplicate it.

    There had been nitrocellulose gunpowders before 1865, but they had been unstable and tended more to being explosives than propellants - the French had tried nitrated wood pulp, and the Swiss had tried some other stuff, but they weren't making much progress. The chemistry of a modern smokeless propellant isn't very complex, but the processes to making a reliable propellant are. Still, just *knowing* there was a solution would have been an enormous help.
    In 1846, the first nitrocellulose was produced by accident, resulting in the cotton towel bursting into flames. Many tests, and many false starts followed. The first documented use as a propellant in firearms was in 1855 in Stanton NJ. Since the "inventor" did not realize that his propellant was 6 times more powerful than black powder, his initial experiments were, well, spectacular failures. Thank god for "an exceedingly long lanyard" in his words. It was not until 1886 that "guncotton" was "perfected" to point where it could be used effectively in firearms. I do not know of any production firearm (Muzzleloader)that was designed to use the new propellant. All were metallic cartridge designs. This was the age of Falling blocks, Rolling Blocks, and early bolt actions. Such was the power of the new propellant. It also happened to be so corrosive, and so damaging to firearms, that the increased interchangability of parts, assemblies, barrels, etc. became paramount to the effectiveness of any Army in the field. Thus began the ascension of Paul Mauser.....A quickly trained smith, operating out of a horse-drawn wagon could keep an entire battalion operating in the field for months. By way of comparison, once a muzzleloader failed, it was essentially trash. Barrels were commonly re-used for tripods to allow soldiers to suspend there cooking post over a fire.

    So, Gun-cotton or other early smokeless powders did not really see any kind of widespread adoption until the 1880's. For fun someday, take apart any surplus .303 British cartridge. You will find them loaded with Nitro-cord. Really sticky, and really smelly. But also really sure-fire. I blew through 800 rounds of .303 that was originally manufactured in 1913. Not one misfire. This was in 1994. 81 years old. Very slow burning as well, the recoil took a moment to kind of build up...Spooky at first.
    Imagine whirled peas

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    Bellson

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    Quote Originally Posted by mija View Post
    Another option for a finish would to be to brown it. Mix a thin paste from wood ash and urine. Clean (oil free) all parts to be treated just as you would to do a modern blue finish. Apply the ash/urine paste, wait 12-48 hours or more, remove paste, hand buff with oil and or wax and you have a nice browned oxidized finish. Keep oiled just as you would a blued finish. I have finished several black powder pistols this way. They still look great after 20+ years and you have a period finish. I'll try to get a picture of a derringer I did posted, probably be monday or tues. Got this idea out of a "History of Remington Arms" book that my old man gave me when I was a kid. Now if you really wanted to dress it up you could have to have a vernier tang site with a hooded front post to really make it impressive. Your second model could be a lever action AK.

    Semper Paratus.
    OK, I'll say it...AHHHGGGGHHHHH!!!

    TOO MUCH INFO!!!!!

    But still really cool to know. I didn't know exactly how the brown oxidation was done...Makes perfect sense now. Ash + Ammonia + Water + Salt...Pee Finish....Brilliant!!!
    Imagine whirled peas

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    Bellson

  5. #45
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Norinco imported a handful of muzzle loading SKS right after the AW ban started. There are a couple of web sites describing them. I guess it shows even the faceless billions of Communist China can have a sense of humor...
    I HAVE SEEN ONE FOR SALE ON GB A WHILE BACK.

    THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL AK MUZZEL LOADERS BUILT. SOME WERE I DOWN LOADED AND PRINTED PICS OF ONE A FEW YEARS BACK.

    I WILL DO A MUSSEL LOADER BARREL AT SOME POINT FOR MY SWITCH BARREL BUILD JUST FOR GIGGLSES AND ALSO THERE IS A MUZZEL LOADING SEASON HERE SO WHAT THE HELL. i WAS THINKING OF MAKING THE MAG A STORAGE COMPARTMENT FOR THE BALL AND POWDER. IT WOULD BE A SUPER EASY BUILD.

    IT COULD BE DONE ALSO WITH OUT A FACTORY TRUNION JUST NEED A BLOCK TO HOLD THE BARREL. A GUY COULD LIKELY LOOSE THE BOLT AND CARRIER AS WELL WITH A LITTLE INGINUITY. JUST MAKE THE HAMMER FIRE THE CAP AND FIGURE OUT A WAY INSTALL A CAP. THEN THE BARREL COULD BE SLID BACK FURTHER MAKING THE NEEDED LONGER BARREL LOOK SHORTER.

    ON A BENT BLANK WITH A HOME MADE TRUNION AN NO BOLT OR CARRER A GUY COULD BUILD ONE OF THESE FOR LESS THAN $100 WITH A LITTLE SHOPPING. THERE WERE BARRELS ON NUMRICH FOR AROUND $30. IT WOULD BE A GOOD SPARE PARTS BUILD. TAKE A ORIGINAL FGC, A DUST COVER AND A BENT BLANK AND SOME INGINUITY AND IT WOULD BE REALLY SIMPLE TO DO.

  6. #46
    Gunco Veteran Viper Dude's Avatar
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    It would be most interesting to see if a functional semi-auto could be designed and built using a Civil War era BP cartridge and elementary (blow-back ???) technology. Those BP rounds were generally short, fat, and rimfire things. Tube-feed mags ???? A brass frame ???

    VD

  7. #47
    TRX
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    For some reason I didn't copy the pictures of the BP SKS to my SKS directory. But putting the cap on the nipple looked like it would require tweezers or needle-nose pliers, since it had to be done through the (former) ejection port.

  8. #48
    Gunco Regular BlackFetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
    hmmmmmmm stupid was my first impression of the gun in the above picture. my other impressions were not much kinder. what ever makes you happy i guess. it will propley sell at a art museum for $100,000. LOL
    yup

  9. #49
    Gunco Member Story's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper Dude View Post
    It would be most interesting to see if a functional semi-auto could be designed and built using a Civil War era BP cartridge and elementary (blow-back ???) technology. Those BP rounds were generally short, fat, and rimfire things. Tube-feed mags ???? A brass frame ???

    VD

    Mannlicher introduced several automatic rifle designs that were unsuccessful, but ahead of their time. He introduced fundamental principles that were used by later designers, often successfully.
    Mannlicher's Model 85 semi automatic gun used his recoil operated action originally developed in 1883; it anticipated the recoiling barrel system used later in designs like the German MG 34 and MG 42 machineguns, and the M1941 Johnson machine gun. The Model 85 would have fit the same tactical role as the American BAR or British Bren of World War II fame.
    The Model 91 semi-automatic rifle was designed to use the 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge and the Model 88 rifle clip. Like the Model 85 it was a recoil operated action like the later Remington Model 8 and M1941 Johnson rifle.
    Ferdinand Mannlicher - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    MANNLICHER - Google Patents


    http://www.cruffler.com/MannlicherMo...dingRifle1.gif

    http://www.earmi.it/armi/atlas2/612.gif

    A 7.62x54R action (FPK/PSL/Romak) on a milled receiver would be an interesting start.

  10. #50
    Gunco Veteran Viper Dude's Avatar
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    Hello Story,
    Yes, baron von Mannlicher was a true genius and way ahead of the curve back then. He designed over 150 models of auto and repeating firearms in the last quarter of the 1800's. His blow-forward barrel pistols have intrigued me a lot especially after hearing rumors of the system being used in a WW-II German prototype assaul rifle.

    VD

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