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Thread: 'Confederate' AK in .36 caliber (9x39mm)

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    Gunco Member Story's Avatar
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    Default 'Confederate' AK in .36 caliber (9x39mm)

    As a spinoff of this thread, is anyone familiar with the GUNS OF THE SOUTH?
    (See this thread http://www.gunco.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8039 )

    I was toying with what would an AK built under mid-19th century conditions be like?
    The steel mags are basically doable at that time.
    The receiver, milled.
    The round a .36 caliber (9mm x 39) loaded with patched lead rounds and black powder.
    This caliber is already used in Russian special purpose weapons like the VSS (albeit with FMJ rounds).
    Cartridge
    Metric designation
    Bullet weight, g
    Muzzle velocity, m/s
    comments

    9mm SP-5
    9x39
    16.8
    280
    Subsonic ball
    9mm SP-6
    9x39
    16
    280
    Subsonic AP
    See also
    US 9x39 Ammo

    The barrel would need to be at least 20" long, to wring the most out of the black powder.
    The front sight base and gas chamber in cast brass.
    The finish non-existent (as period arms can "armory bright")
    The bayonet a socket type with spike blade (like a Mosin Nagant's)
    All furniture of wood, not laminated.
    The rear buttstock longer, with a brass buttplate and a definative wrist ( like the SMLE's).

    And it'd be engraved with something like Tredegar Iron Works Self-Loading Carbine, calibre .36


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    Gunco Member 8mm-man's Avatar
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    The problem I would see it having is in cycling.
    Blackpowder is lower in power (per volume that is-it takes a LOT of it).
    There would not be enough cycle power for the gas piston or spring.
    Not from such a tiny cartridge loaded with black.
    The spring and stuff would have to be equal to the ak-22.
    Second-that thing would foul up and quit cycling within just a few shots. No kidding.
    The gatling gun of that era, was only able to work, because of the many barrels and a non-self loading mechanism---in other words--you had to crank it.

    Nice idea though!!!! I love thinking about how we could have won that war.

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    Gunco Member Story's Avatar
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    Yeah, I've thought of those drawbacks. Remember, this is an exercise not in *if* it could be done, but how.

    The 8X50R M.1888 scharfe Patrone was loaded with a 244gr round nosed bullet and a 62gr charge of compressed black powder . This gave the bullet an approximate velocity of 1,750fps out of the Steyr 1888's 30" barrel.

    Remember, muzzle loaders could only be fired a dozen times or so before the fouling had to be cleaned out (often with urine behind the firing line). So a fouled repeater would just be part of the soldier's life and probably why 20 round magazines would be the preferred issue item.

    With the sand-cast brass gas chamber, a threaded and slotted bolt along the horizontal line would act as a clean-out channel.

    (And it could just as easily be a .36 calibre Spencer Self-Loading Carbine, Tremont St Boston MA )

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    This exersise is not something I would do BUT you might consider doing it in a pump action like some of the California guns then you could blast away till the barrel fouled any way. I would look at the 458 SOCOM or 50 Beowulf possaably necked down some. these rounds would hold enough powder. they are compared to the 45-70 in balistics but with modern powder.. another posibilty would be using a 308 WIN length round like the 338-08 or possably the Win short Mag rounds or the WIN Super short MAG round as they would hold enough powder. there is a levithan round that is based on on the Win SSM that is shortend more to fit in a AK mag. I dont think it would be impossable to get a black powder AK to cycle It would be a mess in a very short time but it would be cool to see 30 rounds of black powder go off in a hurry I suspect you would need a good cros wind to keep the target in the picture. GOOD LUCK

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    GuncoHolic Sprat's Avatar
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    this is first for me a black powder AK
    why not lighten the bolt and spring make it a five-ten shot, even with pyrodex you will get significate powder residue. I think this will be strictly blow back, and block off the gas vent
    just follow other's 9mm builds

    a confederate ak american ingenuity

    sprat

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Blow back is a good idea. I dont think the spring would need to be made much weaker as I belive a stock spring is used on the 9mm builds and that has some pretty low chamber pressures. This build would be a alternitve in a post apopylipical scene were ammo is gone and we are all driving around in bizar looking hot rods chasing each other down for Gasoline. (watched road warrior last night)

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    GuncoHolic Sprat's Avatar
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    Oh

    if you do load the black powder and or substitute (pyrodex)make sure you use magnum/hot primers. I ve never done a 9mm ak so if thats the case then leave the spring alone, the bolt carrier could be lightened if needed. yes I agree great post apocalyptic adapation. little corrosion if you use a chrome lined barrel

    one could almost write a book around it/ sell TV rights wake up sprat!!

    sorry if folk's view some of my post's as negitive, it how you read them

    sprat

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    Somewhere on YouTube there's a clip of someone blowing through a magazine of BP reloads in an AK. Looked like a fog bank, but it made it through at least one magazine with no misfires, stovepipes, FTEs, or FTFs.

    The AK's gas system is *very* forgiving; it's virtually the same in OEM calibers from .35 Remington to .30-'06 and 7.62x54R. The only time they needed to change it was for the Saiga shotguns.

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    Gunco Veteran jreifsch80's Avatar
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    sounds like a cool idea. what about using the 11x60mmR BP or also something like the .43 mauser that they used in the gewehr 71. I'm sure you could find brass for it but might be pricey. though when i think of a bp reloading carbine i start thinking of 45-70. you could also look into using .45 colt if you want a pistol round but i think the power from those is pretty anemish in bp form but it would give you a standardized ammo if you had a .45lc revoler. or the .44-40 for pistol. so are you actually going to build something of this idea? I would love hearing more, i think it's an awesome idea also i remember reading about some of the experimental advanced technologies they had in the civil war years and it was quite interesting. if i find anything that could help you i'll let you know. or you could always make a turn of the century type ak with some british round using cordite propelant

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    For the record I started on muzzel loading AK,s built from spare parts A few years back. not Semi auto but the mag makes a good place to store spare bullets patches and powder.

    I started on one once for the black powder season here but never got serious about it.

    basicaly a inline barrel using a Shot gun primer slid through the trunion. HMMMM maybe ill do a black powder muzzle loader barrel for my switch barrel build to allow it to cover all hunting seasons. Might as well would not cost much

    there is no reason a black powder round wont work in a AK there would be a ton crud from the powder but it would go bang for a while. getting the pressure high enough to cycle with out a huge port to get it to cycle would possable be a issue but im sure it could be done. .

    Other than the novility Im not sure why any one would want to build one.

    A muzzel loader in My state dont need a FFL to transfer

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