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Thread: Ak in .45 winchester magnum gas port help

  1. #21
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vz58
    ...and the magazine body was made today.
    Hit the first snag. The nose of the 45 sits too low and hangs up when you try to chamber it. Not sure how to change this as the mag sits against the ejector and the round sits right below it. I can recontour the bullet guide but that stubby nose is the problem. Possibly a ballistic tiped round would work as is, but I want to use the "flying ashtrays"

    After about 6 hours on the mag I just gave up and tried a M1 Carbine mag, and the damn thing worked first time and every time. The 15 rd holds 6 win mag, Guess I just gotta resize the mag well, give up on a BHO and figure out a mag release/triggerguard
    VZ I have been looking long and hard at this. I got more excited after I read that the Hornady .45 dies do both ACP and Win Mag! I have some brass now and want to convert at least a few hundred to 45WM.


    What kind of magazine are you "making"? I'm guess you're either adapting a mag or bending sheet metal? I'll be honest, I was thinking about making my own box mags for this. Perhaps a 20 rounder?

    I think I may be able to help with that. After spending a few nights just looking at the magazines and scratching my head, I think I know how to make the 45 straight cases feed properly.

    You and I have the same problem. The .45 in an AK magazine feed system. The .45-70 is of course different than 45WM, but the feed ramp area is basically the same. If you look at the way a .410 or even a 12ga magazine feeds, you'll notice the front of the magazine is open so the feed lip sits "inside" the magazine. At least, it sits below the top of the magazine.

    The same application is made to the Uzi magazines. The front of the magazine is situated in such a way that the round is mostly exposed.

    The followers tilt the front of the bullets up just enough that they have less effort to move on the ramp, but not enough that the back end is below the bolt.



    OK. To apply this to your (and soon my) build, I believe that if you trim your magazine at the front, and alter the follower so that it is pushing the front of the bullets up ever-so-slightly, you should be able to get them to fit. You may have to alter the location of the locking lugs, but now that I've welded AK lugs onto a dozen G3 magazines, I'm no longer "scared" of magazine alterations

    You may have to tilt the magazine a few degrees - not much - if you find that the Angle of Attack (AoA, or Alpha) to the feed ramp is too steep. The AoA should be less than on a pistol, or even on an Uzi style design. I would guess that the extra space in the AK receiver would let you lengthen the feed ramp a bit.

    That change would let you keep the BHO feature, assuming it is a standard BHO style that has an engagement lug at the back of the magazine.
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  2. #22
    Everyone NEEDS a Glock! glock's Avatar
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    hey if your in the right state... your flash hider looks like the start of a good can for .45 just put about 2 to 3 inches of expantion baffel then top the end on the FH add another FH section and repeat cover with tube and bam hush ducky

    once you get the paper work done first of course
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  3. #23
    tired of idiots vz58's Avatar
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    Hcpookie, my problem is more the side to side angle, I stamped a mag and them welded on feed lips, I didnt quite burn through but close to it and have little dimples under the lips at the mag body.
    Even still, when the round is picked up (say for example the right side round)and run forward, the ogee hits the back of the locking lug and cants out to the centerline too far. as the round continues forward the open mouth of the hollow point impacts the left side of the barrel. If you use the aero tip (a BP polymer bulett) the resuslts are *slightly* better. But certianly not acceptable.
    Also there is a LONG way for the round to travel once it starts moving as the mag sits too far back.
    The next mag I tried was a M1 carbine mag which acts as a singlr position feed mag. Unfortunately My mag well is now 1.092" wide, but holding the carbine mag with my hand and releasing the bolt I have 99% feed rate with both bullet types.
    Next I tried a 5.45 mag. It acts as a double feed sometimes (the round is caught on lip or the other) or a single feed if the round pops up. This is not really a fair test of this mag as the feed lug on th bolt is too wide for the mag but I did get many feeds. Here is a pic of this set up with a 45acp (cant find the 45wm dummies) held at the proper distance from the rear of the mag


    you can see the distance it has to travel before the barrel.

    So I believe the mag must be a single feed device.
    The Grease gun mags design lengthened would be the best so far.
    I intend to get back on this (or the 500 other projects) as soon as the milled side plates are all finished next week.

    Sorry for the misspellings, I just got off night shift.

  4. #24
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    You may also want to look at making it a single-stack feed at the top. You can tip the feed lips (and maybe the top inch) inward and that will make the top rounds bunch up faster. Like the vertical "dimples" on a normal pistol magazine. Heck you may even want to press those vertical dimples into v2 of the mag The single-stack feed, already centered, should not have any more of your feed problems. I can see how they would bunch up on a double-stack because they should feed more like a shotgun than a bullet with such a large diameter.

    Just a wild thought... try cutting the front of the feed lips. that will let the round "pop loose" sooner, giving it more time to align. That will be a one-way test because putting feed lips back is a frustratingly difficult weld and sanding job.

    I tried cutting the feed lips on my .308 build because at the time it appeared that my cramming of a G3 magazine into an AK trunion was causing side-to-side binding issues like you describe. It didn't help - and at a certain point it let the follower begin to tip when on the rearward stroke, causing misfeeds. So don't do it TOO much! I did it about 3/8" at a time. Just sanded it off. That's why that magazine was the prototype

    I found the problem was not too long of feed lips causing the bullets to "stick" against the locking lugs, but several areas that were binding which I thought were A-OK... mostly binding at the gas piston and the top rails. Polishing those areas, along with using a new recoil spring, solved my problem.

    That may not help you, but if you can "push" the bullet past the obstruction without damaging the lip of the "ashtray", it may be worth a try. Try this - remove the magazine, recoil spring and FCG. Reinsert the bolt and carrier, then tip the rifle muzzle-down then muzzle-up. If the carrier doesn't slide freely, consider polishing the rails, piston, gas block, etc until it practically slides on its own. My .308, using a normal "G" bolt, was touching the ejector at the very back, and that caused binding when trying to rotate the bolt into battery. I had to sand the round area that was rubbing, and that also helped.

    You can also try a brand-spanking-new recoil spring from either a "G" kit, or a new high-strength one from Wolff Springs (riflesprings.com). If the recoil spring is strong enough, it will FORCE them in! The only problem would be the potential that the 45 Win Mag won't have enough power to operate the action. So polishing really is a good idea, anyway.
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  5. #25
    tired of idiots vz58's Avatar
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    Can you post detailed pics from top and bottom of your magwell that accepts a g3 mag? I am hesitant to open up the front area of the mag well that much.
    Last edited by vz58; 01-16-2008 at 06:02 PM.

  6. #26
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Right here:

    http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK...08/mag_308.htm

    You shouldn't need to open up the magwell if you're making a center-feed "single stack" mag. The area you really want to focus on is the front of the magazine and *possibly* the feed lips. IMO.
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  7. #27
    tired of idiots vz58's Avatar
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    Yes I think I am going to look at chopping off the feed lips and narrowing to a single feed like this:



    Here is the mag I whipped together for this experiment, please ignore the crudeness of it. It uses a g3 spring. The crude rib in the back is for a BHO but I may drop this feature.



    I have wondered if I wouldn't be better off just going with the 450 bushmaster and some .223 mags.

    If I stick with the 45WM and a mag like the kimber I will have to add "ears" to the side of it to fit the well.



    Oh and what do you mean you have brass you need to convert?? If you need 45WM I have some I could mail you.

  8. #28
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vz58
    Yes I think I am going to look at chopping off the feed lips and narrowing to a single feed

    Here is the mag I whipped together for this experiment, please ignore the crudeness of it. It uses a g3 spring. The crude rib in the back is for a BHO but I may drop this feature.
    Keep the BHO if you can. I have the same basic idea that will use a piece of small square tubing welded to the back. Is that what you did? That is impressive! Nevermind the crudeness, that's why it is a prototype until after it works and is painted

    I have wondered if I wouldn't be better off just going with the 450 bushmaster and some .223 mags.
    It would be easier, but then where's the brass? Where is the reload data? Oh that's right, they want you to buy the ammo. The 45 Win Mag is an established cartridge and I must say I'm inclined toward the WM vs. the Bushmaster at this time. I'm patiently waiting for .45 Bushmaster ballistic data so we can make an apples-to-apples comparison of these two rounds.

    If I stick with the 45WM and a mag like the kimber I will have to add "ears" to the side of it to fit the well.
    I looked at my PPSH mags and they have a 2nd layer that makes the "box" to which the locking lugs are attached. Ditto for the G3 magazines. If you do something like that, the 2nd layer, it will look very close to these magazines. It will also make the magazines stronger, and the locking lugs will be easier to deal with on the 2nd layer.



    Oh and what do you mean you have brass you need to convert?? If you need 45WM I have some I could mail you.
    I bought a box of .30-06 primed brass for a good deal at the gun show. I need to cut them down to size for the 45 WM. That's what I meant. I plan to start with 250 rounds just so I don't have to reload so often between tests at the range. I still have no bullets.

    I won't refuse *any* donation to my brass collection!!! Send all your strays my way!!! But it sounds like you have need of them as much as I do!
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  9. #29
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    I like the mag. has me thinking about how to do my non rimmed 444 Marlin.

    As far as the 450 bushmaster goes I think it would be a great round when and if it gets a following. lets face it MOST AR guys own these guns to just have fun with. the few that actually use this round for hunting are very few. there are a lot of better guns than a $1200 AR to shot pigs with or what ever animal You want to hunt with it. I am not slaming the AR its just that there needs to be a LOT of these sold for every one to get into the ammo game and make brass and ammo prices drop. I really dont see that happening. Also there is to many simiular round like the 458 Socom, 50 beowulf, ect to spread out the small pool of buyers.
    what you are building is the way to go IMOA as brass is as cheap as yopu are going to find (30-06 or any simular round). not many hunters want to spend $15 dollars worth of lost brass every time they unload a clip at a running animal. with the 06 brass it comes out to around a $1. I am watching these builds very closely. I am looking for a big bore that I can aford to shoot a lot.

  10. #30
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    VZ after that PM I got to wondering.

    I am still confident that the double-feed will work, and here's why. The G3 mag, and any other mag that uses .308, is double-stack. I have learned quite a bit about magazine design thanks to my .45-70 project.

    When a double-stack is properly designed, the rounds will sit in a "stack" and push directly up on each other. Like two "single" stacks side by side. The spring force will need only to push them directly upward with little friction.

    A poorly designed mag will "stack" them at an angle so that instead of pushing "up", they push sideways. You can see this by trying to load 7.62x39 rounds into an AR magazine. After about 4 rounds the magazine sides will flex outward. Unless you have a WW2 bomb-proof 10 lb. magazine, you won't get them to load. And even if you were to get them to load, they would stick in the magazine due to the sheer force required to "roll" them all up the magazine. You would need a really strong spring to overcome this binding.

    So for the .45 WM, .45 ACP, or any other round based on the ".30-06 family" size of cartridge, any of the .308, .30-06, or .45 magazines should work as a base platform. I still think that carving up an M3 Greasegun magazine and welding sheet metal "shims" to the sides, thus making it a LONG M3 magazine, is the best idea so far. The spring should still work, and a new follower and floorplate will be needed.

    I know that my Uzi 9mm mags can use .40 and .357 SIG in the same mags, since the diameter is so close. I wonder if any cheap-o 9mm mag with a strong spring can work if the feed lips are bent out for the .45 cartridge. I assume they could, with perhaps a new follower or welding a "ramp" onto the follower to keep the larger cartridges from hitting the front of the magazine. Or just cut the front of the mag and tilt it to feed.

    Take that one step further:

    Take a G3 magazine, cut a section from the middle of both sides, and reweld the cut pieces back together. It would be double-thick. The magzine would be a "short" .308 magazine, which would in theory let 20 rounds of .45 WM fit perfectly.


    Or take a Suomi or PPSH drum, weld an extension plate to the circumference, and reattach the lid. Presto, a "fat" drum. Obvoiusly, it will be a bit more complicated, but you get my point.

    Or a belt-fed .45 WM, using the existing MG3 feed trays and belts.

    Ah, the possibilities!



    I looked at the GS last weekend for stick magazines, and didn't see anything that would "perfectly" fit... there's a different GS this coming weekend and I'm going magazine hunting again
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