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MY.451 & .458 AK Ideas

4K views 65 replies 11 participants last post by  Bradrock 
#1 ·
Im looking at a several factory rounds that could have the rims rebated easly on a lathe or possably a drill press jig in possably a one step operation with a custom ground bit. they are all shorter than the 308 WIN overall loaded length. the first is the 444 marlin it uses the 44 mag pistol bullets . the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin (basicaly a 45-70 MAGNUM) there is also the 458x2 american and a couple of other wild cats.
the 444 marlin brass is $45 per 100 it would alow the use of pistol bullets of 430 dia and 44magnum barrels could be rechamberd and also would use the same bullet as the new 450 bushmaster.
the 45-70 ($42 per 100) and 450 marlin brass( $81 per 100) would use the .458 rifle bullets. I would likely rebate the rim to standard 7.62x39 dia but a 308 WIN size rim could be used and the bolt opend up if it makes the rebating process eaiser or if the smaller rebated size is to much for that case. there are loads for all these rounds from 14,600 PSI clear up to 45,000 PSI so im sure a safe load can be found. these rounds should fit in a modifed G2 mag or other 7.62x51 MAG. the 450 marlin head spaces on the magnum belt so keeping the belt and rebating it may be a little tricky. there is no need to use it anyways as the brass is way higher than the 45-70 brass and those have been loaded hot in modern guns for years. there is no reason the AK needs to be stuck with the same short rounds as the AR. rebated rimmed ammo would still use the same chamber as the factory stuff. also rebating the rim would prevent hotter factory ammo from chambering.
the 458x2 american uses shortend magnum brass. I just know that I need to do something with this 458 win mag barrel
 
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#27 ·
Bradrock said:
Oh that is totally cool!

This is a like new condition full floating chamber reamer holder. It is made just like the clymer except this one has a 7/16 steel ball. By installing the 7/16 dia ball behind the reamer this gives the reamer holder angular floatation as well as perpendicular floatation. To use set the gap between the two parts at approx .050 inches insert the 7/16 dia ball and then slide the reamer shank down aganist the ball until the gap tightens up between the two parts of the reamer holder. Next lock the reamer in place. Now loosen the two screws that hold the two parts together approx 1/2 turn. The reamer now has angular and perpendicular floatation. The reamer will follow the bore of the barrel even is it is off center or not straight. What you are doing is just pushing the reamer and the floatation of the reamer holders lets it do this. This reamer holder has a 1/2 inch straight shank, and holds standard 7/16 dia shank chamber reamers.
 
#28 ·
Well.......I took the plunge & ordered a .50 barrel from Pac Nor. 28" 1 in 18 twist chrome moly. Just under $200.00.

I'm comitted now to eventually building the Beowulf.
Next on the list I guess is a steady rest & choosing the best magazine.

Oh.........learn how to use a lathe . ( could be the deal breaker!)

They said six to eight weeks. Time to start cutting some chips.
 
#29 ·
Bradrock it might pay to just have someone do the chamber work for you. Unless you are going to do a bunch of work the steady rest and floating reamer holder may not be worth the investment. I have gotten quotes for reaming a chamber in the $40 range with my reamer. A $200 dollar barrel it not a god way to start learning how to use a lathe. Now if your like me and think you need every tool under the sun then buy away LOL keep us posted on the build I think it will be a awsome weapon when done. Are you going to buy the dies and reload as well??
 
#30 ·
Believe me.....I will NOT be practicing on THIS barrel. I'm in no hurry at all. Have many other builds in progress. I'm just gathering parts as funds allow.
Yes I need every accessory ever made for the South Bend 9" lathe.
I have over 200 cutters for my horizontal mill now & haven'u used but two of them yet.
I'll be doing chambering & have accumulated quite a library on the subject. The fun for me is learning something new & I don't care how long it takes. I don't even care if I screw up & have to start over. I just keep trying until I get things done right.
 
#32 ·
After looking at everything I think that the .458x1.5 Barnes type would be the way I would want to go. Should get around the same as the .50 Beowolf and the .458 SOCOM without the proprietary bull. .458 SOCOM reload data should provide a close starting point for work up. So, some questions 1biggun.

Did you make some dummy rounds up?

Do they have to be inside necked reamed? I think that making a neck reaming die wounldn't be too hard. A .458 WM reaming die runs around $100.00 which I guess could be shorten.

What would you do about FL resizing? The reload bench said that you could use different 45 pistol dies, but none that I can see had the correct base dia. of .509. I can see just bullet seating with other dies. A Lee factory crimp for a .458 WM could be cut to get a crimping die.

Regular belted headspace gauges could be used after the base is turned to .308 or 7.62x39 which ever you choose to use.

Who was making the reamer for you? If several of us could get together, it would lower the cost of the reamer for all. Same for the headspace gauges.

.458 barrels are easy to come by plus there are a slug (pun) of bullets out there. I would go with the 1 in 14" twist. I would also want a custom gas block to keep the barrel as large as possible, maybe a Saiga block if they are sold some place?
 
#34 · (Edited)
.458WM dims for a reamer are here under belted:

http://www.clymertool.com/cgi-bin/reamer.cgi

Dims for the cartridge are here:

http://www.reloadbench.com/popup/cart/233.html

Let us know how it goes.

One thing I don't get in the web pages that show how to make reamers, is when cutting the taper he uses a std 4 jaw chuck. How does that work with the offset tail stock? I could see turning between centers with a dog, but it looks like just using a std chuck would cause flexing in the stock.

ETA Are you making a .458WM reamer or a .458x1.5?
 
#35 · (Edited)
Yes, I have them in the cartridge conversions manual. I can get them for you tonight. Also, the reloading manuals I have list them.

All of the dimensions I have list the cartridge size, not the chamber size. According to the Clymer tool site, the chamber should be anywhere from .002-.003" larger, up to .005"-.008" larger. I am going to build mine based on the differences between an AK chamber and the AK cartridge dimensions. That's why I made a chamber casting of an AK :) IIRC it was .005" larger but I need to look again.

Too tight, good for match and bolt action use. Not good for reliable semi-auto extraction ;)


ETA that the book I have also describes the cartridge conversion process. Glad to see Gunter posted before I did. I can't ever get that site to pop up for me, so I can't see the image. Looks like they use javascript. Print screen is your friend when you can't right-click ;)
 
#36 · (Edited)
Thanks Gunter, but my build is the 45 winchester magnum, not the 458 winchester magnum. Two very different animals.

Anyone have the 45 win mag?
I have 2 sources both slightly different and as these only came in semi auto its not the bolt vers. semi variation.


Anyone have the dimensions of the 450 bushmaster??
 
#37 ·
Gunter I put it all on hold when the 450 bushmaster came out, as it was almost exactly what I was making and did not have the magnum belt. pacific was going to make the reamer. 458x1.5 is on print at a few reamer places.
the 450 bushmaster appears to be made from a cut down .284 winchester brass it was untill very recently the only american made rifle round with a rebated rim.
I just couldnt see spending a bumch of cash to make up a almost identical round as to what I was working on and then have to cut the cases rebate rims and then form and load what likely will be pretty avaliable in the near future. The 450 bush master is sammi approved (I think) wich means that the reamer will not be propierty and shopuld be avaliable soon if not all ready.
I have started to think bigger is better and with the AK being able to accept 308WIN length shells with some work I feel that a round like the 444 Marlin or the 458x2" American is more what I want possably with a rebated rim. the dies are cheap the loads are published the bullets are out there and the reamers are on the shelf (not sure about head spacing with the rim removed so a custom reamer may be nessacary or modifiing a standard one to head space of the case mouth).
Right now I am playing with the idea of 30-06 cases cut down to 2.225 (444 marlin length) and ran through a 444 marlin die since the head diamiter of the 06 and the 444 are the same I should end up with a a straight rimed 444 marlin with a .473 rim. this means that it would fit/work in any 308 converted AK with only a barrel change. It would also mean very cheap 30-06 brass can be used and also no rim turning required!! just open the bolt up.
I think a lot of the AK guys myself included get into the mind set that we need to be confined to a AR length round when the AK can be made to handel a longer one fairly easly (same as a 308 conversion)
AS long as the chamber pressures are kept in reason a longer round is better in almost every way.
If and when the 450 bushmaster becomes more avaliable I will build one.
If you do decide to procede with a 458x1.5 build I would be very interested in having a barrel chamberd if you decide to get a reamer. I honestly think that the chamber can be bored on a lathe with the rest set to the proper angle for the larger straight walled cases. you are only boring in 2" you would need to ream the free bore but that can be done with a inexpensive .458 reamer designed for any .458 round. keep in mind that unless you keep the belt you are going to have to head space of the case mouth and that will require carefull case measuring and trimming when you reload.
It would be neet if a few guys from this site got together and pooled there cash and came up with our own wildcat and then could share the reamer costs and possably the cost of die development. I am only guessing but I suspect one could get a pretty good doscount if you orderd say 10 custom die sets at once.
 
#38 ·
Sorry vz58, I had .458 on the brain.

My web-fu is weak 1biggun, so do you have a link to the .458x1.5 reamer dims or a scan of a print?

This would be something that will be a ways down the line. I need to finish the .308 AK before starting something else. Plus finish testing the different bullets in the 7.62x39 now that it is sporting a scope. Shop time and testing time has been hard to come by the last few months.
 
#40 ·
gunter I was just going to order the reamer. it is a pretty common reammer in the wildcat world I have a pic of it in the cartridge conversion book that gives specs of the case.. Infact rcbs has dies avaliable. I would just order the reamer. Pacific was very helpfull when I hade my 17-223 made. I would buy the dies make the round, then measure the neck and make sure the reamer it bigger than that so you dont have to turn necks or anything. Im only gussing here but I think they are about $150 for a custom reamer. you might check with the rental reamer sites I think I saw one avaliable some were.
 
#42 ·
#45 ·
us_dragunov said:
Hey Pookie...while you're at it...do you have the same on the 7.62x54r?
http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/cartridges/x54r.jpg


Gunter said:
Thanks for the .308x1.5 print..... how about the .458x1.5 Barnes?
I don't see that one in the book...



Here's the book I bought that has all these cool things in them - keep checking because I got it for $40, and I think it is just the luck of the draw as to what bookstore has it in stock:

ISBN: 0-88317-269-0

http://www.amazon.com/Handloaders-Manual-Cartridge-Conversion/dp/0883172690/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200093427&sr=8-1
 
#46 ·
I have one of those coming. Thanks for looking for the .458x1.5 Barnes.

After reading 1biggun's 444 thread I was looking at some old 44mag rounds from when I had one. 240gr pointed hollow points and looking at them in an AK mag, looks like you could cut a 30.06 case at 1.75. That should put the lip at the canalure and keep it under the 2.200 OAL. I might try to pull the bullets and make some dummy rounds up down the road to see how they fit in the mag. Might need a .223 mag to fit right.
 
#47 ·
Gunter there is a .44/06 listed in handloaders manual of cartridge conversion on page 347 right next to the 444 marlin. the case length is1.285" (a little short) and a loaded length of 1.61"(again to short). something like that but longer would be about what you are looking at. It uses 30-06 as the parent brass but im pretty sure 308 win or any simular brass would work
It occured to me that a 30-06 case ran through a 444 marlin die then cut to 1.75" like you propose might have the right ID at the case mouth to hold the larger ,458 bullets Might have to inside neck ream). If this would work then u could use a 458 riflle barrel instead of a .430 pistol barrel. this would mean better bullet selection as all the 45-70 and 458 win mag bullets out there. A custom chamber reamer would definatly be needed. A .451 bullet might fight as well (45 cal pistol)???
I need to get some 444 Marlin dies and time and money. Ice daming and a very water damaged house are going to but things on hold here for awhile. :(
 
#48 ·
A little 458x1.5 info
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w458x15barnes.html.

Keep in mind that the 458x1.5 uses a .532 rim(meaning opening up a AK bolt a lot) and head spaces of the Magnum belt. (might make feeding and mags more difficult)
I was going to turn away the belt and rebate the rim. this would have been almost identical to a 450 bushmaster that came out right in the middle of my designing my round. SO I quit.
284 brass might be used for a 458 or.44x1.75 or simiular length round and is already rebated and has no rim. this is the direction I would go if I wanted to make some thing inbetween a 450 bush master and a 444 rebated Marlin. this would make a great round giving more trigger guard clearance than a 2" case. A mag would likley have to be cut down/narrowed possably a g3.
 
#49 ·
The .458x1.5 Barnes is on the back burner for now.

Just for s&g at lunch I took a .06 case and cut it at 1.75. Then use the press to expand the case with a pulled .44 bullet. Just a little and then removed it with the puller. Then seated it as best I could. The od at the mouth was .459 with the bullet seated. I didn't think to mic the case wall before seating, but should be around .015 which should work for a mouth headspaced round. I was wondering if a 44mag die could be opened up a bit to work.
 
#50 ·
According to the reloadbench website:

The cases are easily made by cutting off a standard 458 Winchester Magnum case for a length of 1.5 inches.
and:

No one makes loading dies for the cartridge, but one can improvise by using 45 Colt or other 45 pistol dies.
So the x1.5 is a belted cartridge?



Gunter said:
Just for s&g at lunch I took a .06 case and cut it at 1.75. Then use the press to expand the case with a pulled .44 bullet. Just a little and then removed it with the puller. Then seated it as best I could. The od at the mouth was .459 with the bullet seated. I didn't think to mic the case wall before seating, but should be around .015 which should work for a mouth headspaced round. I was wondering if a 44mag die could be opened up a bit to work.
That's interesting! It would be like the 45 Winchester Magnum (which is a loooong 45 ACP) except in .458 instead of .450? I know where that .458 barrel can be used!!!! :thumbup1:
 
#51 ·
Yep, the .458X1.5 is a belted cartridge. The rim would have to be rebated to .308 or 7.62x39 size.

The one I made for fun at lunch is .429/430 not .458. It's really just a long .44magnum with a 30.06/.308 base.
 
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