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MY.451 & .458 AK Ideas

4K views 65 replies 11 participants last post by  Bradrock 
#1 ·
Im looking at a several factory rounds that could have the rims rebated easly on a lathe or possably a drill press jig in possably a one step operation with a custom ground bit. they are all shorter than the 308 WIN overall loaded length. the first is the 444 marlin it uses the 44 mag pistol bullets . the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin (basicaly a 45-70 MAGNUM) there is also the 458x2 american and a couple of other wild cats.
the 444 marlin brass is $45 per 100 it would alow the use of pistol bullets of 430 dia and 44magnum barrels could be rechamberd and also would use the same bullet as the new 450 bushmaster.
the 45-70 ($42 per 100) and 450 marlin brass( $81 per 100) would use the .458 rifle bullets. I would likely rebate the rim to standard 7.62x39 dia but a 308 WIN size rim could be used and the bolt opend up if it makes the rebating process eaiser or if the smaller rebated size is to much for that case. there are loads for all these rounds from 14,600 PSI clear up to 45,000 PSI so im sure a safe load can be found. these rounds should fit in a modifed G2 mag or other 7.62x51 MAG. the 450 marlin head spaces on the magnum belt so keeping the belt and rebating it may be a little tricky. there is no need to use it anyways as the brass is way higher than the 45-70 brass and those have been loaded hot in modern guns for years. there is no reason the AK needs to be stuck with the same short rounds as the AR. rebated rimmed ammo would still use the same chamber as the factory stuff. also rebating the rim would prevent hotter factory ammo from chambering.
the 458x2 american uses shortend magnum brass. I just know that I need to do something with this 458 win mag barrel
 
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#2 ·
You might want to check the inside diameters of some rimless rounds. they'ed be less hassle in a mag feed and you could just cut them off. If they are straight walled you would have to head space off the mouth. .308 looks like it might take a .45 if you cut it off at the shoulder.
 
#4 ·
I would want to head space of the case mouth like the 450 bush master and the 50 beowulf. the 284 winchester brass is used cut down to make the 450 bushmaster. A 308 round is under .458 on the OD were it necks down so it is to small. (might work for a smaller calibur however maybe a .40 cal) You are correct in pointing out that head space would need to be on the case mouth and a 444 marlin and a 45-70 chamber would need to be cut as such. and over all shell length would be more critical when loading. as far as using a belted case it may be possable to rebate it and still leave the belt for head spacing there are a number of magnum auto loaders out there that feed pretty reliably the browning BAR comes to mind. the 45-70 would have the entire rim removed of course.
 
#5 ·
Are you SURE you want to make modifications to the cartridges? I can picture the tediousness of chucking EACH AND EVERY round up on the lathe. Seems like you will go insane and start babbling to yourself after the 3rd or 4th time you have to do it.
 
#7 ·
Im envisioning a keyless chuck with a pin that runs out the center of it through the primer hole. the base of the pin would be .459 so when I tighten down the chuck it will keep the case from crushing the case. I am thinking a cutter could be ground that would come in at a 90 degress and cut the groove and reduce the OD in one step. Im am thinking of 15-30 seconds each once set up. I think this could even be done in a drill press if build right, for guys that dont have lathes
It cant be worse than full length sizing with a foster hand crank cutter I did 500 rounds of 223 this summer and that really sucked.
It would only need to be done once in the life of the case and this is a hunting deal with me so 100 round would last a long time.
When i get a chance i am going to rebate some 7mm MAG brass and see how it goes.
The other thing I was thinking was a 3 3/4" 410 sagia mag might be pretty close to a 45-70 round just thinking out loud here.
 
#8 ·
#10 ·
Just out of curiosity why not use a 50 beowulf? I already is rebated to use a 7.62x39 bold and barrels are available[
QUOTE][/QUOTE]


were are you finding 50 beowulf barrels at?? that are reasonably priced and not from one of Alakander arms approved dealers$$?? I wanted to get a reamer last year and it was a propatary round not avaliable. brass is very expensive .
I really want to do a wildcat of my own and why not go with a 1.75" long round and take advantage of the AK,s less restrictive magwell. the .50 bullet selection is not as good as the .458
It,s part ego trip/ part hey lets do something differant. I was working on a rebated 458x1.5 when a nearly identical 450 busmaster was introduced. i literaly had to call and put a stop on my custom reamer order.
I am planing on doing a common reciver that will handel barrel assembly in 243 win,260 REM, 308win, 7mm-08REM 35 remington,358 win, and at least one BIG BORE. I may never get all of them done but I have the barrels for a bunch of them.
 
#12 ·
I have you seen the 444 Marlins the Tromix is making from .410 Saigas? It seems like changing the barrel and messing with the gas port were the main if only modifications
[

WTF I guess my 444 marlin idea is not so original. well at least we know it will work. WOW. Tonys site does not mention it and it says they are not taking any orders till 2008??? I did find some info on it however. I have a 410 sagia that I really have no good use for this may be my next conversion. talks of a hooded bullet guide some thing that may be needed on any of the round discussed on this sight. US-dragnov thanks for the heads up. what kind of deal can you get on sagia magsa over there???????????


http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26432&highlight=&sid=d771e8c49f0cbb7dc9736688f2eb7547
 
#14 ·
1biggun said:

were are you finding 50 beowulf barrels at?? that are reasonably priced and not from one of Alakander arms approved dealers$$?? I wanted to get a reamer last year and it was a propatary round not avaliable. brass is very expensive .
I really want to do a wildcat of my own and why not go with a 1.75" long round and take advantage of the AK,s less restrictive magwell. the .50 bullet selection is not as good as the .458
It,s part ego trip/ part hey lets do something differant. I was working on a rebated 458x1.5 when a nearly identical 450 busmaster was introduced. i literaly had to call and put a stop on my custom reamer order.
I am planing on doing a common reciver that will handel barrel assembly in 243 win,260 REM, 308win, 7mm-08REM 35 remington,358 win, and at least one BIG BORE. I may never get all of them done but I have the barrels for a bunch of them.[/quote]

Yes I would agree the reloading is expensive but if I recall correctly the bore the same as 50 a&e leaving you to rechamber a barrel.
 
#15 ·
1biggun said:

were are you finding 50 beowulf barrels at?? that are reasonably priced and not from one of Alakander arms approved dealers$$?? I wanted to get a reamer last year and it was a propatary round not avaliable. brass is very expensive .
I really want to do a wildcat of my own and why not go with a 1.75" long round and take advantage of the AK,s less restrictive magwell. the .50 bullet selection is not as good as the .458
It,s part ego trip/ part hey lets do something differant. I was working on a rebated 458x1.5 when a nearly identical 450 busmaster was introduced. i literaly had to call and put a stop on my custom reamer order.
I am planing on doing a common reciver that will handel barrel assembly in 243 win,260 REM, 308win, 7mm-08REM 35 remington,358 win, and at least one BIG BORE. I may never get all of them done but I have the barrels for a bunch of them.[/quote]

Yes I would agree the reloading is expensive but if I recall correctly the bore the same as 50 a&e leaving you to rechamber a barrel. All of that said I understand on a personal level the need to build "your gun"
 
#16 ·
Yes I would agree the reloading is expensive but if I recall correctly the bore the same as 50 a&e leaving you to rechamber a barrel. All of that said I understand on a personal level the need to build "your gunYes I would agree the reloading is expensive but if I recall correctly the bore the same as 50 a&e leaving you to rechamber a barrel. All of that said I understand on a personal level the need to build "your gun"
IF reamers become avaliable to rechamber the barrel I would loe to build a 50 beowulf. Last time I checked they were not as they were still propitary and not avaliable to the puplic. (this may have changed in the last year) I also know that there are ways around the unavaliable reamer, for instance changing the dimensions slightly like free bore or neck dia and calling it something else. this is how some of the early 6.5 grendal reamers were done for bolt actin rifles.
 
#18 ·
I'm going to order a barrel this week for .50 Beowulf. This build will be aways down the road. Especially if I have to make my own reamer. I'm just gathering parts as I can. I allready have more than my lifetime of kits to build & kitbash.
I'm quite embarrased to admit that I allready bought a barrel without realizing that .50 BMG is actually .511-.512. This was a chambered blank that I'm not sure what I'll ever do with. An expensive mistake from not enough knowledge. That's why I'm in no big hurry. While I'm learning more, reamers may become available. Right now Cabelas has the best price on ammo I know of & I've been slowly gathering some of that also.

I sure miss the barrel deals on Ebay.
I did get a 30-06 barrel to maybe use on a PSL & I got some BAR mags to try.

I see Numrich has some chambered .222 barrels for only $13.00 or so.

.45 Colt Non finned Thompson barrels for $105.00 I think, could be another posibility for the parts shelf.

I need a steady rest before any barrel work.
But it's fun just gathering parts & brainstorming possibilities.
 
#20 ·
I would like to get a couple 2.5" mags for mine. I have seen brass 410 shells I wonder if they will work with the 444 marin chamber pressures? might be able to make a rifled slug gun that shoots pretty good. 410 bore shot guns are ileagle in my state for dear hunting however.

Bradrock build that 50BMG before the laws change. I am tempted to at least get a reciver done for one. I remember when you bought that barrel. werent you talking about using the short end for a 50 BMB pistol??

If some one were to get a reamer they could likley pay for it easly by chambering other barrels or renting it out when done. I know I would be interested in a barrel or renting the reamer. I thought of buying one my self and doing the same thing. buying a longer blank will give enough barrel to do a pistol and a 16" rifle. you could likley make your rifle barrel and then sell the shorter section chamberd for most of what you have in the reamer. just food for thought
 
#21 ·
Here's where I'm ordering a .50 barrel in the next few days.
Notice they also have .311 blanks.

I don't have much interest in a .50 BMG. Bad shoulders & no place to realy wring one out. That blank will gather dust for a long time.
I have a LOT of learning to do on my lathe as I've never done any barrel work or anything else other than simple handyman stuff.
By time I learn some more machining skills, reamers may be available anyhow!
I'm not too concerned as it is such a simple chamber, with several ways to do it.
I just jump around from one project to another so much as I come up with ideas for each, that not much comes off the end of my assembly line! But I'm having fun & learning & gathering lots of new tooling, so It must be a GOOD THING.
 
#22 ·
Bradrock this is the lathe part about reaming that I know - the barrel (either finished or unfinished) is chucked in the head. This is where a larger lathe comes in handy, because my mini-lathe simply isn't big enough for an unfinished barrel. Therefore I have to do the outside shaping first. A steady-rest helps.

The barrel is trued, then the tailstock is trued up to the bore. That *SHOULD* be a simple thing, but mine seems to be out of spec somehow. I can't get a good alignment on it. If anyone has suggestions, I'm willing to listen!

Anyway, you align the tail stock and that's where the reamer goes. You should mark the distance to the base of the cartridge on the reamer, like wrapping it up in tape. That's so you know if you've got the reamer in deep enough.

Chuck it in, use motor oil (according to the reamer rental site) or another thick cutting oil, and slowly work the reamer into the barrel. If everything is in alignment, you'll slowly, tediously, cut a chamber.

Now, I've read that you can hand-cut a chamber with a tap wrench, but I don't know how easy/difficult that is. It may be easier, I just don't know. I don't know if you just tap it "by hand" in a vise, or mount the barrel in a lathe and use your hand and the tap instead of the tail stock.

It would be interesting to hear other people's input on this. Perhaps a new thread... ???
 
#23 ·
I was asking my gunsmith tonight that now works out of his home about reaming my17-223. he has a foot switch on his lathe so he can so he can turn it off an on easly and he uses a floating reamer holder, and says go very slow and keep the chips out of the hole. On my AK stuff he said deep ream it then face the end of the barrel of untill I have proper bolt clearance. He has offerd to come to my shop and show me how to ream a barrel once I get a steady rest. I think what ever the rest costs would be well worth the education I may get. this guy is older but is very well regarded and is the only one I trust with my trap and higher end guns.
I showed him one of my AK pistols he was not taken aback by its EVIL apperance at all and was very interested my varmit build. I am hoping to pick his brain some more when I pick up my shotgun, I am almost looking for things I need done so I can go see him.
Bradrock If you get a .50 beowlf reamer you are suddenly going to have a bunch of new best friends!
 
#24 ·
1biggun said:
he uses a floating reamer holder, and says go very slow and keep the chips out of the hole
You have my attention! :thumbup1: What pray tell is a floating reamer holder? Need to know. And how slow is slow? THe reamer rental instructions specify up to 200 RPM. That's the lowest speed on my lathe.
 
#26 ·
A floating reamer holder will allow for some missalignment in your tailstock and slight runout in the barrel. obviously you want it at close as possable. By slow I am refering to the speed that you wouldfeed the reamer into the bore. in otherwords alittle at a time pullback and clean away any chips. brownelles has reamer holders as well. I have seen some set ups were the reamer is handheld and the tap wrenh has a sort of adapter that allows the reamer to slip in it if binds up in the barrel so it wont break your wrist and the reamer.
 
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