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Thread: 444 marlin

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Default 444 marlin

    after being tiped of to the sagia conversions that Tromix is working on I have been really looking into doing a differant version of this. My plan is to simply rebate the 444 marlin case and use a standard bolt. the sagia conversion would be the easiest but requires a sagia 410 as the base. the barrel machining looks a little tricky as well as there is a uper feed ramp milled into the barrel its self. This may not be nessacry on AK based build. I am going to add some links to the sagia convrsion her latter. My plan is to have the 444 marlin headspace of the case mouth this may require a special reamer Im not sure I think the throat would be the same as a 44 magnum and it appears that the bullit is of the same DIA as the 44 mag so a 44 mag throating reamer may work for this part of it. the

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    http://www.akforum.net/phpBB2/viewto...736688f2eb7547
    tony gets into twist rates toward the bottom. this thing uses the same bore as a 44 MAG. there aresome barrels out there reasonable. I want to build a rifle and a pistol for hunting.

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    Gunco Member us_dragunov's Avatar
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    Well...I'll let you know how mine is when I get it from Tony sometime next year. :-)

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Its interisting trhat tromix does not have any thing on there web sight about the Saiga 444 marlin conversion. It will be a little trickey to do the built in feed ramp on the barrel but not out of the realm of the do it yourselfer. I am wondering if a upper feed ramp would be nessacry on a rebated casing. I dont think a standard bolt can be made to work with a sagia 410 style feed ramp as the bolt would hit it.

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    Gunco Member us_dragunov's Avatar
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    Tony seems pretty open with sharing his knowledge. I bet if you sent him an email on how he did it he would be willing to fill you in a little more than what he posted.

    If you do contact him let us know what he says. I'm interested too.

    Good luck!

  6. #6
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    After Mickey tiped me off, on a different thread to the fact that 444 Marlin was originaly made from untrimmed 30-06 brass. I got to thinking again about how a rebated rim 444 marlin would work in a AK modifed to accept 308 length rounds.
    This is what I am thinking. I will take cheap 30-06 brass trimm it to 2.225 the same length as 444 marlin run it through the 444 dies fire form if nessacary in the die and I should get a .473 rimmed 444 Marlin case!!! This would require no rim turning and could be used in a AK converted to fire 308WIN with just a barrel change. the barrel will have to be reamed with a modifed 444 marlin reamer. the modification will be that the round will head space of the case mouth (Like a 450 bushmaster or 50 beowulf) instead of the rim.
    The advantages I see with this design are. Standard 444Marlin dies would work and are cheap. 30-06 brass would work and is cheap and avaliable everywere. the Loads are published and accepted. Brass prep may be as simple as trimming and forming although it may require fire forming. No rim rebating would be required if the bolt is opend up to 308 WIN dia. A standard reamer ground back to make the case head space on the casemouth might work.
    I am going to get a set of 444 marlin dies and see how it goes.

  7. #7
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    more info on the tromix 444 marlin Sagia

    http://forum.saiga-12.com/lofiversio...hp/t17066.html

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    well I finally got off my ass an orderd a barrel or 2 and have the dies. I am still working on the reamer. I plan to go ahead on a rimless version of something close to a 444 marlin the plan is to use cut down 30-06 brass and after straightening the neck resizing in 444 marlin dies. the part that has me concerned is the head spacing. I will have to head space off the case mouth this appears to leave very little room for error regarding case length. the 450 bushmaster and the 50 beowulf bolth appear to head space this way. I see no reason why my design will not work. I am going to consult a few reamer manufactures to see what they recomend. this will be built on a standard AK bolt(opend up) and likely a yugo trunion just for the added strength. I think a 308 mag, like the cheap g3 will work or possably a FAL mag. in my mind it should work out like a 308 conversion but will be .430 bore instead. if my rimless idea doesnt work I will just rebarrel my 410 sagia.

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    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    If it does indeed headspace off the case length, then this is the same thing as most any straight-wall pistol cartridge.

    If you reload, you'll be trimming brass anyway.

    I wouldn't be too worried about it.


    ETA - I read up on the round and "this is in essence an elongated 44 magnum cartridge".

    Cartridge image and data on this PDF:

    http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/P...page%20331.pdf


    Another ETA - after looking more at the cartridge and your description, I am seriously thinking it would OK if you headspace it at the mouth. You would need to headspace length to the edge of the cartridge, and assuming you don't crimp it (not sure you would need to) the long brass would not allow the bolt to close. So trimming would be a necessity both when you neck up the .06 brass, and when you're reloading the rounds.


    I like the idea of simplifying your endeavor by using -06 brass that is necked up. You do know that the .44 Automag is basically a "short" version of the same thing, right? I think that .308x1.5 Barnes (?) is along the same lines, as a "medium" version.


    Necking up .30-06 brass may require a bit more work than you expect. The calibers I've been looking at which are based on .06 brass indicate you'll need to anneal the brass before you neck it up, in order to avoid cracked necks.

    When you anneal and size it, you should be OK until the brass stretches, which may or may not be frequent. I've already ran into sizing needs for my .308 brass in my .308 AK. That's after 2 loads. I suspect that, since this is a "44 Magnum Long", that the resizing needs will be similar to what a typical .44 magnum needs.

    That will have a direct result on shelf life, because the brass flow will shorten the lifespan of the brass. Honestly, I don't think there is a good way to measure brass flow unless you cut one apart, then after XX number of reloads cut another one apars and compare them. If the brass is too thin at the base, it is at that point you'll need new brass.


    What kind of rounds are you going to load up for it? FMJ? HP? I think Hornady's new ballistic-tipped "Lever-Evolution" rounds come in .44 size. That would help feeding vs. a normal HP.
    Last edited by hcpookie; 03-06-2008 at 01:20 PM.

  10. #10
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    I am not sure what bullet to load yet. I have not seen the leverloution bullets sold seperatly yet but there is a interlock hunting bullet from hornady that is described as having polymer point in 265 grains in my most recnt natches flyer. If it in fact has a plastic tip then that will be what I use. the 30-06 brass hopefully will work out otherwise I will have to trim off the rim and cut a new groove on standard 444 brass, some thing I dont want to do. I want this to be something that can be built on a standard kit with a cheap mag and inexpensive brass. this is likely going to require a special reamer. I have been wondering if a standard reamer and using longer brass would work possably. I suspect that I may have to crimp to keep the bullets in place under recoil. The lee factory crimp die is cheap and does not do a role crimp but more of a multi demple crimp like you see on factory commercial ammo. I think this will work well because it still leaves a sharp edge at the case mouth that is needed for more sure head spacing. I figured on having to anneal the brass I also need a arbor to expand the neck yet as well. I figure since I will have all this development work in this I might as well build a bolt action as well on the same round. got a line on a rem 700 action that would be a neat little brush gun with a 16-18 inch barrel.

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