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Thread: 450 Bushmaster - more info

  1. #11
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    1.5 Barnes were too short for the AK mag
    The 1.5" barnes BRASS is almost exactly the same length as the 7.62x39 BRASS. A 1.5x308 barnes is almost identical to the 7.62x39 in length. 1.5 is not the overall round length it is the length of the brass! it should fit into the AK mag quite nicely. 1.5x308 uses cutdown 308 win brass. 458x1.5 uses cut down Magnum brass (7mm mag, 300 win mag, 458 win mag ect).

  2. #12
    Gunco Regular Gunter's Avatar
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    1biggun, your right. I had a brain fart when posting. The 458x1.5 would fit the mag. It was the belt that I was wondering about. Feeding, stacking, etc. and if you turned off the belt then it would have to headspace off the mouth.

    This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
    Thumbnail:


    The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed. Like I said, this was a "what if" thing and didn't mean to highjack the thread.

  3. #13
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    how long is the case in the center?? The 444 rimless that I am working on is exactly like that but longer aproximently 2.225(I havent decided on a OAL length yet). I should be able to use standard 444 marlin dies. the 44 automag must have a lot more taper if it needs to be inside reamed. I dont think the 444 rimles will need that as the 444 marlin dosent require it. I likely will have to aneal an fire form to straighten out the 30-06 brass.

    the round you have pictured in the center would be a great build on a standard blank and maybe a modifed 223 mag. I like it a lot!! if you are going to fire form any way why not make it longer to fill a AK mag completly?? this will have to head space on the case mouth as well. A .41 cal version might be even better with better velocity and better case capacity to bullet weight plus it could be designed to head space on the shoulder. Better start a new thread for this.

  4. #14
    tired of idiots vz58's Avatar
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    You may have a feed problem. The lack of a taper and a shoulder can adversly affect feeding. Of course a single position feed magazine will help this, but still, fat non-taper cases may hang up significantly more often.

  5. #15
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Yet another link, this one in Spanish - thanks to US Dragunov who showed me this site. I'm not sure the information is 100% accurate because I don't have any brass to measure against:

    .450 Bushmaster / MUNICION.ORG

    Since the information is quoted (thanks Babelfish!) that it is cut-down .284 brass, the conversion may be that simple. I did not know this, but the .284 is dimensionally close to the .308 but has greater powder capacity. That *still* makes me think that a stretched .45 Winchester Magnum is going to be very close in performance to this round.



    I was also reading on the Hornady site, and the definitely appear to have "pet" loads for their factory ammo. I'd guess they load it hot, because they seem to favor the right-hand side of the charts with their loads. I can't wait to see what their reloading recommendations will be.

  6. #16
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    That *still* makes me think that a stretched .45 Winchester Magnum is going to be very close in performance to this round.
    I agree. it would also be about the same balisticaly as a 458x1.5. that is a good pic. It appears to be stepped down just past the base and even shows the reduction were the bullet is seated. reloading it will require very carefull case trimming due to head spacing off the case mouth.

    I wonder how long before someone necks it down to .410 or .375 or .35.. A .375-450 BM would be a pretty good hunting round with better range.

  7. #17
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    I wonder how much difference a .284 and .308 cartridge that is cut to 1.7" has? Is the .308 that much thicker of brass? If it is an incrementally small amount, then IMO this would be satisfactory for the "intermediate" needs. I posted a few more links I came across in the "Intermediate" cartridge discussion thread:

    http://www.gunco.net/forums/f244/45-...-rounds-35115/

    One of them talked about the .449 LWR and the fact that at 800 yards it loses all velocity. The Coast Guard was on that one, and the cartridge is a 2mm longer version of the .50 Beowulf (1.73" vs. 1.65" cartridge length).

    The point is that the performance envelope carries this through the range of being able to disable "small water craft" engines at 200-yards, and no collateral damage after 800 yards. I would imagine these .45 sized Intermediates would be extremely close in performance. That level of performance is *perfect* for what I would see these being used for - home defense, property protection, anti-vehicular patrol use, etc.

    BTW, you can buy the .499 LWR brass from the SSR Armory page:

    7.62x51mm, 6.8, 5.56 Ammunition Custom Brass Cases

    That has a 7.62x39 rebated base, so *NO* bolt mods would be necessary! Yes, that brass is about .50 per round. Therefore, if the use of .308 brass could be loaded with a significantly close amount of powder, say off by only a few grains, then IMO it would be cheaper in the long run to modify the x39 bolt to use .308, then live with the slightly lower velocity the smaller capacity cartridge would produce.

    I have read that most people measure capacity by using an eye dropper and converting CC's to grains somehow.

    I don't have any .284 brass to play with, which is the problem. Until I have some brass to play with, everything is a guess.

  8. #18
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    It will not take me long to mod a bolt to take the .470 rim. the 450 will have a fair amount more case capacity than a 308 0r 30 -06 . the .284 is .500 at the base (the same as a 45-70 or magnum brass). think of the 284 as a unbelted magnum made to shot in a 30-06 action. I thing the mag for the 44??? would be much eaiser to do as well.

  9. #19
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Are we talking about the same thing? I thought it was this cartridge:

    http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd284winchester.jpg

    compared to 308:

    http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd308winchester.jpg

    The rim is the same as .308, but they have expanded the base to .500. I doubt you could fireform .308 to that size? That would be a .025" expansion at the base.
    Last edited by hcpookie; 04-08-2008 at 11:04 AM.

  10. #20
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    The rim is the same as .308, but they have expanded the base to .500. I doubt you could fireform .308 to that size? That would be a .025" expansion at the base
    Uh Im getting lost here as well.
    I have no intention of trying to expand the base of a 308 round.
    I have 41,44,45, 458 rounds on my brain Its getting hard to keep all the stuff that going on straight. LOL

    I was just stating that the 284 case versus a 308 case cut to the same length that the 284 will hold considerably more powder than the 308.

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