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Thread: 44????

  1. #111
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    bump 41 cal info around page 5. the 41 jauras is close

    there is to much thought put into this 444???? for it not to be built buy a few guys here it is completly doable. mine would be done If I had bought a better blank.

    a 375 and a 41 version would really be a good round as well

  2. #112
    Gunco Regular Gunter's Avatar
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    Here's some more info on the 444 rimless. Looks like the 44??? is just a short 444 rimless.

    A "Rimless" 444 Marlin... - Page 2 - Shooters Forum

    Don't know what's up with the link. Go to the box at the top of the page and click DAW A "Rimless" 444 Marlin.

    I gave up on finding a Handi 44 mag barrel, so a 44 mag barrel is on the way. I'll make it into another insert for testing.
    "Take time to deliberate, but when the time for action has arrived, stop thinking and go in."

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  3. #113
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Sounds like they've done some of the ground work for you! Other than length, sounds about like the same deal. You could probably - maybe - use .444 reloading dies and run the seater down deeper to seat in the shorter cartrige. Or just cut of the bottom 1/2" or so.
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  4. #114
    Gunco Regular Gunter's Avatar
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    That's what I was thinking on cutting the 444 dies off.

    1biggun what is the mouth od on the 3 you made up?
    "Take time to deliberate, but when the time for action has arrived, stop thinking and go in."

    "Four hostile newspapers are more to be feared than a thousand bayonets."

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  5. #115
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Good link to bad his sight wont open up. its two years old.

    My case mouth OD is .457 with a .4295 bullet pressed in(hornady 265GR ) Keep in mind that I have not crimped it any so it might reduce if we can find a way to crimp in the bullet like with the lee factory crimp. THIS IS WITH REMINGTON BRASS AND LIKELY WILL VARY FROM BRAND ESPECIALY MILITERY BRASS THAT IS THICKER. I was able to make my rounds with out cutting a die down. I need to get a expander for this round so can have straight consistant brass to play with.

    I got to admit I feel a little bit exhonerated knowing that Im not the only crazy guy out there thinking like this. I also feel like I have done a pretty good job of thinking ahead as it seems that I have most if not all the bases coverd for the 444??? or the full length rimless 444 marlin (wich was the original plan for a AK and still a good one IMOA). He is using a reamer and a seperate throater just like I thought would be best although I still think it might be possable to cut THE CHAMBER with a boring bar set at the correct angle. I wonder if he ever thought of it as a autoloader round like we have LOL??

    I gave up on finding a Handi 44 mag barrel, so a 44 mag barrel is on the way. I'll make it into another insert for testing.
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    your loosing me here are you building a handi rifle for testing??? or just using the barrel on a AK. I think this a good idea to build a handi from a 44 mag and if it dont work you could always open it up to a 444 marlin as long as the extractor issues can be overcome. That 44-06 he was doing sounds pretty cool as well on a bolt gun. I have a couple of handi rifles and was thinking if I bought a reamer I would do a bolt action and a Handi as well just to off set the cost of the reamer.

    In need to decide on a overall length and stick with it. it sounds like it is important to keep the bullet lead short and for a specific bullet. I really wish hornady start selling or some one else would come out with a pointy bullet for this round.

    YOU KNOW THAT IF 3 OR 4 GUYS POOLED THERE MONEY TOGETHER AND BOUGHT A REAMER AND THROATER(THROATER COULD ALSO LIKELY BE USED FOR THE ROUGHER) THIS WOULD BE A LOT CHEAPER TO DO FOR ALL OF US. I WOULD WANT A REAMER THAT WOULD WORK WITH BRASS MADE FROM A STANDARD RCBS OR LEE 444MARLIN DIE. IF THE DIE HAS TO BE MODIFED BY SHORTING IT SO BE IT AS LONG AS IT IS REPEATABLE AN STANDARDISED FOR OTHERS TO DUPLICATE. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO MAKE THE OVERALL LENGTH SHORT ENOUGH THAT ANY BULLET THAT CAME ALONG IN THE FUTURE LIKE THE HORNADY LEVERLUTION SOFTTIP, WOULD STILL ALLOW IT TO BE SEATED OUT PROPERLY AND STILL FIT IN A AK/AR MAG .THEN IF THE THING ACTUALLY FEED AND FIRED THE REAMER COULD BE REPRODUCED FROM THE PRINT AS NEEDED.

    I AM CERTAIN IT WILL MAKE A NICE BOLT ACTION OR SINGLE SHOT ROUND. iM A LITTLE CONCERNED ABOUT GETTING A ALMOST STRAIGHT ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER WITH OUT JAMING

  6. #116
    Gunco Regular Gunter's Avatar
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    As for the Handi, I was wanting to get a 44 mag barrel for the SB1 frame. Then work the chamber over the 44???. I just ordered one of the barrels that HC posted and am sure it will need to be sleeved for use either in the AK or as a barrel insert for the 10ga Handi barrel (do not install inserts or high power rifle barrels in standard Handi shotgun frames). I'm going to try it in the Handi first and go from there.

    Yep, one of the things we need to decide on is the length of the case. I also think that it would be best to cut the chamber and throat in two different operations. I was looking at Clymer yesterday and they don't show a throater for the 44 mag. So everything might need to be special made.

    Looking at the 45acp at the mouth there is only .001 clearence and .003 at the base. Like you said just switching to Mil-spec cases might result in a round not chambering. I'm going to get a 444 die set and use your steps and see if the cases come out the same as yours.
    "Take time to deliberate, but when the time for action has arrived, stop thinking and go in."

    "Four hostile newspapers are more to be feared than a thousand bayonets."

    Napoleon Bonaparte

  7. #117
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    A few thoughts - you may be able to get away with .44 mag dies, just run them in shorter. Maybe... depends on case diameter at the point where a .44 base would normally be. That, with the purchase of a .444 Marlin full-length sizing die, and you may not need to make any mods at all!

    About the case length - everything needs to fit in an AR / AK mag. That dimension is the starting point as I have understood it. Exactly which AR frame is open to debate - .308 size (AR-10) or .223 size (AR-15) frame? The use of an AK frame is actually pretty easy, since you have a .308 AK to work with, and that would need only a barrel swap! That may be worth the extra cost of the rifle, because magazines are now available from several places!

    Personally I think that the 1.7 size is good enough - 1.75 maybe? It assumes you'll be using .308 / .06 family brass as the parent cartridge.



    Feed angles for this should not be a concern. It may need a new feed ramp, but other than that it should feed fine, unless you're using a hollow point so big it looks like a shot cup. That may be a moot issue anyway.


    About the expander issue - this is exactly what I was concerned with for the .45 WinMag with the "donor" brass I'm converting. Without fireforming, it will create an hourglass-shaped case since the parent cartridge is slightly tapered, and you're enlarging slightly beyond that point.

    Fireforming is the only practical way to "fix" this issue and make it a truly straight taper without building a fancy expander that is purpose-built to expand that sucker out. That said, you COULD shape the brass to the final shape using only reloading tools, ASSUMING you build yourself a "full length expander". If you do that, then the brass forming would be like this:

    1. Cut the parent cartridge to length
    2. Expand the parent cartridge with the "full length expander"
    3. Full length size the brass in a suitable full-length sizing die (444 Marlin?)
    4. Neck Ream for .44/.41 bullets > optional step, possibly not necessary, (this is done for .44 Automag so it remains to be seen if this cartridge would need it...)
    5. Expand like normal
    6. Seat bullet like normal
    7. Crimp like normal


    That would get you where you need, and you would not need to fireform. I am experimenting with this very thing for my .45 WinMag because I'm sitting on enough donor brass to make this worth my while. The only difference here is the "full length expander" for the .44 ? / .41 ? cartridges will be longer!

    Making a full-length expander is simple - mount the expander ball (aka ram) in the lathe and cut it to shape. The normal expanders have a taper near where the top of the original cartridge sits so it flares the case... you are going to cut it back so that point is higher up on the ram, closer to the threads. Polish and you're done. I am using a .44 expander for my .45 WinMag "full length expander" experiment. I'm doing all of this because I don't know that I will be able to fireform all of my brass due to my work schedule, and I am genuinely curious if this will work. I don't see why not, except that I may need to anneal the cases first. They aren't getting expanded much, but you never can tell if you'll split them. We'll see.
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  8. #118
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    A few thoughts - you may be able to get away with .44 mag dies, just run them in shorter. Maybe... depends on case diameter at the point where a .44 base would normally be. That, with the purchase of a .444 Marlin full-length sizing die, and you may not need to make any mods at all!
    I tried 44 dies and they hit the case way before the bullet is seated due to the taper of the larger case. so I think it is safe to rule out 44 dies except possably shortend way down and then only to crimp. I was able to make my rounds with just 444 marlin dies and some misc die parts that to be honest way over expanded the neck and would not reach far enough down to do the rest of the case. there are commercialy avaliable expadder dies that will work. all that needs to happen is get the case expanded sligtly over size 75% of the way down. resizing it in a 444 marlin die will get it back to were you want it.

    Personally I think that the 1.7 size is good enough - 1.75 maybe? It assumes you'll be using .308 / .06 family brass as the parent cartridge.
    IMOA we can go longer right up to were I made mine possably just a tad shorter. there is lots of clearance in a 223 mag with a 265 bullet that was seated to the canalure. I am not positive a hornady leverlution bullet will fit but it woud be as simple as buying a box of 444 marlin or 44 mag and bulling a bullet. as far as going with heavier bullets like cast or 300 grain jacketed it will work as is also keep in mind as bullet weights go up powder must be reduced. so seating the heavier bullets in some will not really hurt an thing.
    My plan is to size to make sure the hornady stuff will be doable in the future. and add just a little extra.
    1.800-1.825 is what im thinking 1.800 comes out to roughly 46mm. this round could easly be called a 11 x 46????? (1.810)
    I want to give this thing as much case capacity as possable so that with light bullets it will really take on the 450 bushmaster, 458 socom. 50 beowulf in the FPS/trajectory race.
    here is a few picks of my round in a promag. the problemwith plastic is the mag wil need to have the lips slitly pinched in or added onto to keep the round sitting flat.

  9. #119
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Yeah that "over expanding" part of the expanding die is what I'm talking about - cut that point back closer to the threads so the tip of the expander can reach deeper into the cartridge to open it up deeper.

    Maybe taper it based on the measurements of the case and presto your "full length expander" is done. Actually now that I think about it you'd need to do that because you would not want to expand way down at the bottom where the web is, because you'd end up getting the expander stuck in the case! That would be a bugger to remove!
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  10. #120
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    .

    Pics of 3 444???? in a pro mag 223 pro mag. note how the round tips up. also pleanty of room for a 265 grain .

    as far as aover expanding that was only because I was using what I had on hand. it would have not been a issue at all with the correct mandrel. the only reasion it needs to be expanded as far down is the 308 & 30-06 have more taper

    If all that was done was fulllength sizing of a cut 30-06 round it would still work fine you would just have a slight hour glass shaped round for the first firing. it still would likely shoot fine and cycle and all that. If you look cloosly at my rounds there is still some slight receding below were the bullet is seated. It would kind of be like shooting a 22-250 in a 22-250 improved chamber it will shoot fine and form the case at the same time.
    personaly I will expand first as accuracy is a issue and slight case capacity varations will hurt it some.

    for what its worth the 30-06 brass is easier to use because it allows you to cut below the neck. 308 would recuire cutting and expanding the throat.

    also trimming 444 dies some would not hurt as the base of the round on reminton brass is .466 not the .473 listed in most books. the rim and base is not even close to touching the die even when doing a 444 marlin rimless round.

    IMOA die trimming is only going to be nessacry if you want to roll crimp with that die, since it will not reach completly to the top of the die. . Roll crimping is not advisable here as we need to head space of the mouth. I am hoping a trimed down lee factory crimp die can be used if it is even nessacry to crimp at all. A 44 mag die cut way down might crimp as well but will not work for sizing.
    honestly feel I could shoot the ammo I have made as it with the correct load of powder.

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