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44????

35K views 236 replies 12 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 · (Edited)
So not to highjack the 450 Bushmaster thread.

This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
Thumbnail:


The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed.

To answer some of 1bigguns questions.

The left one is a standard 44mag, the center is the 44???, and of course a 7.62x39. I don't know why in the pic the case looks like it was cut with a hacksaw, it wasn't. The length is 1.700 inch. Don't remember why that length as you can almost get a 2 inch case by cutting a 30.06 at the shoulder. Maybe it was to use a standard die, but the 444 would be the only thing close or maybe it was close in case volume to another conversion cartridge to have a starting point for loading. Before setting a length I would want to get some 180 to 300 grain bullets to see what the OAL would be. It was just one of those lets see thing.
 
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#2 ·
when I get a chance I am going to form some straigtend out 30-06 brass in my 444 marlin dies then cut it down to a length that will fit in a AK mag. I am thinking that with the taper making the OD larger the shorter the case gets ,that a .45 bullet could be used instead of a .44?? if this would work then perhaps 444 marlin dies could at least be used to do the forming. I am also thinking a .41 bullet would work good in cut down 30-06 brass. this would give better bullet weight to case capacity and a shoulder to head space on. there are several wild cats based on necked down 444 marlin brass. The .375 & .411 JDJ and the.375 EXPRESS (WATERS) are all made from necked down 444 Marlin brass. I think cut down 30-06 brass can be formed to make a rimless version of these. A shorter version that would fit a AK/AR mag would be a great round IMOA.

I got a new computer and hope to be able to post pictures soon of some prototypes im working on as well
 
#3 ·
I don't know if you saw but Tony Rumore (Tromix) had problems with the 10 round .410 mags feeding in his prototype .444 Marlin and is going to try a .375/.444 Marlin. I after trading an email or two with him though I think if the .444 were loaded with longer bullets than what he is using there wouldn't be a problem. That being said....the 4 round mags feed perfect. I know the .375/.444 is supposed to be more comfortable to shoot, but I still MUCH rather have a .444 than a .375/.444 so I am still pushing on that route.
 
#4 ·
The proplem is no one makes a longer/pointed bullet except the $40 a box hornady leverevultion stuff. Not trying to question tony Rumore skills but why would the bullet design affect feeding between a 10 round and a 4 round Mag?? I would suspect the 10 rounder has more upward spring pressure on the carrier and is causing excessive drag,
or is pushing the bullet up a a differant angle. the sagia conversions use a barrel shroud as well to help guide the round if this dont work making a no shrouded version is going to be even tougher. I wonder if the mag being designed for a straight 410 shell instead of a taperd 444 marlin round is not part of the problem also??
Do you have a link to the discussion on tonys gun not feeding??
A 375 woul be a better round in my opinion for hunting any way and better rifle bullets avaliable. I think guys are getting stuck on the mine is better bigger than yours thing. I am starting to wish I had not bought a 44 blank but got a .375 instead
 
#5 ·
#6 ·
That's pretty interesting! I am curious about this but like I said before I'm not convinced the .44 is the best platform, because of the singular fact that bullet selection and barrel selection is rather limited.
 
#8 ·
got the link to open.It seems like the issue is that the sagia mags are not compatable with the 444 marlin. I hopefully will be able to overcome these proplems with a custom mag in my rimless version. I am really starting to wish I had started with a .375 first. the 444 marlin is shorter than a 308 so maybe it is doable. I want at least a 5rounder for hunting as this is the whole point of the build for me. I do admire the fact that Tony will not sell a gun unless it is 100% reliable. since it isnt with a Sagia mag he wont sell it. I have no doubt that a custom mag could be made to make the sagia conversion to work on a custom build. Gunter I still like the Idea of a AK Mag length .44 0r .45 or .458 round sorry to high jack this thread. maybe it can be moved to my 444 marlin thread????
 
#10 ·
It seems like the issue is that the sagia mags are not compatable with the 444 marlin
Actually not true. The mag will feed up to 4. The magazine is built for a rimmed round - .410 - and not the "rimless" .444. Also, the builder didn't want to muck with magazines, so it would be more proper to say the .410 "no magazine" conversion doesn't feed as many as he wants. Not a nitpick, just trying to make a point. I suspect if you wanted to build a new follower you could get it to work. If the .444 rounds don't truly "single stack", then doing a conversion will involve a new mag.

Now to apply this to a .44 "SUPER LONG" build... the magazine would need to actually single-stack it because if not, the spring force will be consumed trying to push the rounds into the side, and not into the feed lips. A true double-stack would probably work just like VZ's .45 Win Mag if you don't mind the extra work.
 
#9 ·
Your not highjacking....just more to think about. Good info all.

The 44 bullet was just what I had on hand. I don't know how much the taper would be with a 45 bullet. I don't have access to the thickness of the case right now, but when back I'll check and see what the taper would be. There are longer more pointed lead bullets up to 500 grains if I remember right. There are some 300 grain jacketed that are pretty pointed. I'll need to probably get a 223 mag and figure out a crimp die to see if it would work.
 
#11 ·
HC I was referriorng to the 10 round sagia mags not working correctly with a STANDARD444 marlin in the Tromix conversion. It is obvious there is a issue with it using some factory loads or Tromic would not have shelved it.(I should and will keep my rimless project on a seperate thread )
I have no doubt that IF TROMIX wanted to modify a mag and or reciver it would be doable. I was looking at a used sagia 410 to modify thus weekend but passed. I have one 410 now but dont plan to modify it.

The 44super long would be a great round I dont know if it would be any better than the 450 bushmaster but it is possable that the 450 AR mag could be modifed to fit a AK. the firts step in my mind to building a 44 superlong would be to come up with a standard dies that will size the brass and a way to seat and crimp the bullets. the next would be a way to ream a chamber Of course a custom one could be cut for about $150. I personaly make the round longer to take the full length of a AK mag with the heavyiest bullet avaliable or usable.the beauty of this round would be the use of 30-06 brass and the avalibilty of it.
 
#12 ·
I am sure Tony (Tromix) could make the .444 Marlin work without too much trouble...maybe a slight modification to the magazine....like HC said a new follower...something...his issue is that he is making these for resale and doesn't want to deal with magazine work, nor does he want to deal with whiners and customer service issues when people use the 10 round magazines and start having feeding problems. I completely understand and respect that. That being said I still want one. I'll deal with my own 10 round issues....lolol

On another little note I believe SureFire Magazines is now making a 10 round for the Saiga 410...I wonder if it would work any better? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??
 
#13 ·
I would think that if someone ironed out the bugs and came out with just a 444 marlin to saiga 410 barrel conversion kit it would sell (hint hint). The liabilty would scare the crap out of me however. I really want a 444?? in a PISTOL so a saiga conversion will not help me much. that is why I am trying the rimless thing with a standard AK kit.

are the surefire mags 2.5" or 3"???? I want some 2.5" mags for my gun I Only have 3" now
 
#17 ·
What kind of load would you start with on this? I'm not sure but perhaps one of the .45 Win Mag loads?[/QUOTE

I would think the 458 x 1.5 barnes would be close.

there is also a 445 super magnum on page 217 of the COTW book that describe it as a 44 mag with 3/8" added to the case.

there is also the .44 wesson on page 339 of the Handloaders manual of cartridge conversion that has a 1.63 case length that should be pretty close

also the 44-40 extra long ( can be made from cut down 444 marlin & Possably rimless with 30-06 brass) it has a 1.58" case length page 340 of the Handloaders manual of cartridge conversion this a very old round I could not find dies for it. the standard 44 -40 is also close and may also maybe doable with 30-06 brass in a rimless version it has a 1.30 case length. very close the .44??? I have been eye balling the last two for a rimless version made from 30-06 brass with standard dies.one of the above loads should be close once the case capacity is determined
 
#18 ·
Ok, back home and dug out the notes so here is the whys:

The reason I cut it at 1.700 is that is the length that the 44 Ballard Extra Long is cut at before opening it up. Yeah it's based on the .220 Swift, but should be close enough to get a safe starting load. Plus it left some OAL room for different bullets in the AK mag.

Now the rest is in "around" numbers because I was using the cheap digital calipers. Mouth rim thickness after sizing is .016. For some reason I didn't write down the OA loaded mouth size, but I think it was around .459-.460 range without a crimp. The base of the unfired Winchester 30-06 case measured .464, so no going with a bigger bullet without inside reaming. Now if you cut it a little longer the mouth rim thickness might be a hair smaller after sizing.

That is where I stopped because I was going to get a 444 die set and see if maybe it could be used as the FL die. The base should be close, but don't know what the size is at 1.700 in the die. 1biggun maybe you could measure one of the 444 cases at that distance and see if it is close to .459-460. I agree the first step is to be able to produce ammo without too much work so we don't have to spend 10 minutes looking for the case that the AK just punted into the weeds.

ETA: The 445 Super Magnum is close to this.
 
#19 ·
I dont have a actual 444 marlin round. I have the 444 marlin dies I could go cut off a O6 round an run it through a die an see what I get though I may have to fire form some how first to blow the round out first not sure. I suspect it is going to be larger than what a .430 bullet will need. if the 444 marlin is correct at 2.225" then with the taper it is going to have a significantly larger ID at 1.70
I keep seeing the base dia of the 30-06 listed at .470" in all the books but I keep coming up with .462-465 on everything I measure as well ??????? the 444 marlin is listed at .470 as well.
 
#20 ·
well this is not going to be as easiy as I thought I cut a 06 case down to 1.850 ran it through a set of 444 marlin dies. the first problem is the 30-06 taper is sharper so the marlin dies only opend up the first 3/8 or so I seated a bullet and I come up with a case mouth of .459 the case is smaller behind the bullet. this would likely fire form out and could be shot as is. the problem I see is the very little taper from the base to the the case mouth base=.465 - case mouth=459 leaves a differance of.006 between the 2 ends. I wonder how this will feed and cycle with such a slight taper? the 444 marlin specs show the case mouth at .453 not sure how this is possable with a .430 bullet. perhaps It will crimp down some but i doubt it. I really need to get some 444 brass to measure. also calibrate my calipers. I took pictures now I have to figure out how to post them????
 
#22 ·
That sounds about right on the mouth size and slight dip under the bullet. I used a 44mag expander to open the case up pretty deep. I wonder if it might help to anneal the case first or if it would make it worse.


ETA: Never mind. I see you got the pic up.

Looks good. So would the 444 die work for the FL die? If we could make a longer expander or maybe use the 44mag.
 
#23 ·
hey it worked!!!!!!! 30-06 on the right. the over all length of the 44??? is slightly to long for a 7.62AK mag but it would seat further down to fit. It does fit in a 223 plastic mag but the lips will not hold the round in it is close however. I suspect that a steel 223 mag with a custom follower and the lips bent in would single stack nicely. my tool post has enough travel to bore in that deep I am thinking the chamber could possably be bored at a angle instead of cut with a reamer. how bad could I screw it up?? the worst is I shorten a barrel another 1.850" the bullet shown is a 265 GF jacketed flat point.
 
#24 ·
I am not sure I had my 444 dies set up right they are used hurters and the sizer and the expander appear to have to share the same adjustment rod with differant expanders. the round could be fire formed or like you said a longer expander rod could be made to open up the entire case. I am not entirely sure that the bullet is correctly and crimped. it may just be pushed in with the seater, it is seated pretty firmly it kind of looks like the bullet may have just expanded the case though. I need to find some directions for these dies. 444 marlin uses a sizer a seperate expander and a seperate seater. I also need a taperd expander to straightend out the 30 cal mouth on the 30-06 brass to do full length 444 marlin as well. I need to get a 44 mag die set for a friend any way so I can try it when I get one
 
#25 ·
It looks like you guys are close on this! You should use the expander before using the seating die. You may need to spray some lube on it to keep it from seizing. Believe me when I say that it is a bugger to remove a die that's stuck in a case!!!
 
#26 ·
My problem is there are a bunch of differant parts there is 2 differant expanders and only one adjusting rod between the sizer and the expander. I am not sure how it all assembles or if parts are missing. I know you size then expand the mouth then seat then crimp in seperate dies on a 444 marlin. but not sure If I have the parts assembled correctly. for each step
I am thinking size it with a 444 marlin die and possably seat and crimp it with a 44mag die.
I really have my heart set on a 444 marlin rimless as I want the extra power and will be shooting it in a pistol so I want all the muzzel velocity I can get. I may find however that this 44??? (the name is starting to grow on me) will hold all the powder I can burn in a 14" barrel an a 444 marlin may be over kill. the 450 bushmaster and the 458 socom will likely bolth out perform the 44??? but If I can make it happen on 30-06 brass who cares. I can afford to shoot it.
 
#27 ·
Whatever you guys do, you should consider ensuring the overal length will be < 2.25" so it will fit into an AR magazine, that way it will not only fit in an AR mag, but also have a wider appeal for AR wildcatters. ;)
 
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