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44????

35K views 236 replies 12 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 · (Edited)
So not to highjack the 450 Bushmaster thread.

This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
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The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed.

To answer some of 1bigguns questions.

The left one is a standard 44mag, the center is the 44???, and of course a 7.62x39. I don't know why in the pic the case looks like it was cut with a hacksaw, it wasn't. The length is 1.700 inch. Don't remember why that length as you can almost get a 2 inch case by cutting a 30.06 at the shoulder. Maybe it was to use a standard die, but the 444 would be the only thing close or maybe it was close in case volume to another conversion cartridge to have a starting point for loading. Before setting a length I would want to get some 180 to 300 grain bullets to see what the OAL would be. It was just one of those lets see thing.
 
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#28 ·
I agree it needs to be short enough that the hornady leverelution bulletes will work as well ,if an when they become avaliable. By the way my 444 seaterdie will NOT properly seat the bullet the part that pushes the bullet in place. it will not screw in far enough to make contact with the bullet. it will not roll crimp also it will however will hold the bullet pretty thight in the case after a couple passes I got the case mouth down to.455 I will try to find some 44mag dies to play with
 
#29 ·
hahahaha I'm sitting in my hotel room watching MACK demo the .50 Beowulf on Future Weapons... the point of the short was to demo the Beowulf's anti-material capabilities. I must say, it was impressive. A few points - the .50 Beo uses 400 grain rounds (didn't know this). Also, emptying a full magazine of .50 Beo puts a half-pound of lead downrange! :rofl:

I know my .45-70 can use 500 grain rounds (and YES I plan to load some!).

How big of rounds are available for the .44 size?
 
#31 ·
LOL. I just put the ??? because I didn't know what to call it.

Speer has the Uni-Core 300gr jacketed soft points. If you go with plain lead then there are some 500gr. Most seem to be in the 240gr range.

I watched that also. Has a little more kick than a 5.56.
 
#33 ·
Looking for magazines, so do you think a metal Romanian single stack 223 magazine would work? Hunting here is with a 5 round max magazine.

Gunco Special sounds good.

Or maybe the Gunco Earth Shattering High Caliber 4 Mile Range Heat Seeking Special. I think that I got most of the MSM buzz words in there. lol.
 
#34 ·
I dont have a single stack 223 mag but Im guessing it would be to narrow. I put it in a doublestack plastic bulgy Mag and except for the lips not holding the roumd in place it seemed to fit ok. sectoining a G2 308 mag would work possably but would be a lot of work.
 
#35 ·
could name it the 444 GSRSM (Gunco Super SHORT Rimless MAGNUM) drived from a short 444 marlin rimlesss
or just the 44 GM
or the 44 BBSKMA ( Beowulf Bushmaster SOCOM Kiss My Ass )
or the 430-06S would allow adding a 4 to the exsiting head stamp the S stands for short would be able to make the factory head stamp look original.
THE 44??? is a cool name to excuse me while I whip out the ole 44 question mark!
the 444 TT (444 Triple Threat)
MY main concern would be the feeding and extraction of empty brass with very little taper. head spacing off the case mouth is also a issue.
the .41 and the .375 versions of this round should not be overlooked.
This round would work very well on 223 length bolt actions very well also and you can bet If I have to shell out for a reamer there will be a savage bolt action 44??? barrel for my 223 made.
 
#36 ·
lol. I like the 44 BBSKMA .

Like you said the .375 might be better as there is a wider range of bullets. The .375 Shannon and .375/38-40 Rimless would be close. Plus it would have a shoulder to headspace off of. Not a big fan of headspacing off the mouth either.
 
#37 ·
Honestly the mag modification isn't really that hard! These would fit into a G3 mag with a little extra space. Right? Could you cut a mag short, leaving enough for tabs, then add a spine with holes that the tabs can fold in to.

Or you could do like VZ and I are doing and just buy some square tubing and use some AK mag springs.
 
#38 ·
It seems to fit the G3 mag very well just to long. I was thinking of just taking a section out in the middle doing some type of overlap and a couple tig welds. I have like a dozen from when tapco had them cheap. I had planed to mod one for my 444 marlin build as that round is shorter than a 308. this would free up some trigger guard space on that build. I think a 450 bush master or possabley a 458 socom AR mag might be workable but the cost and still having to mod it might not be worth it. the g3 would need a differant springng if it was modifed. I think a steel 223 mag with a lip mod would be the easiest not the cheapest though. I think a single stack would be the best as far as getting it to feed. I am starting to think a custom reamer might be worth the $$$$
 
#39 ·
Barrel twist will have a large factor as to what bullets this or any .44 based weapon can shoot. Is there a place you can buy taperd case expanders?? I am thinking of getting new 444 marlin dies likely RCBS so I can get bits and pieces to intechange of the same brand. that way if this round does come to fruitation It can be reloaded with currently avaliable dies and listed part numbers sort of a way to standardize it. I am sure if one could get final version built and a gun that functions correctly that custom reamers and die sets could be made that would be worth the money.

I am still thinking a .41 0r .375 version might be better. yea the .45 bushmaster,458 socom and .50 grendal are bigger but so what. they also have slower MV and kick like hell. How many people really want one other than the mines bigger than yours thing?? In reality with the limited powder capacity a .375 0r .41 or .416 bullet is going to likely have better performance and accuracy further out. the .375 has bullets up to around 300 grains and the 416 has bullets up to around 400 grain. (about he same as the .44). The the 325 grain bullet that the 416 rigby and the 416 weatherby use, would possably be a good choice for hunting. there is a 400 grain round nose solid for you guys that think you are going to go Rambo and need to shoot through solid doors and army tanks and all that. IMOA it is cool to say yea mines bigger than yours BUT how many guys actually hunt with a 460weatherby magnum??? there is a reason that 7mm to .35 cal rounds are the most popular in north america. unless I am going RINO hunting in Wisconsin soon I thing maybe a little smaller might be a lot better. If you want to give it a Macho name call it the 375 Anti SUBURBAN SUPRRESSION HOSTILE OVERLY LOUD ELEMINATOR. OR A.S.S.H.O.L.E for short. LOL
 
#40 ·
My dad would be all over something like a .41 because that's "his" caliber... most all the performance of a .44 without the nasty aftertaste :)

Now I'm interested in how you would shoulder the .44 GS to a .41 - is there enough there for a neck?
 
#41 ·
Now I'm interested in how you would shoulder the .44 GS to a .41 - is there enough there for a neck?
HC on page 321 of the manual of cartridge conversion there is the .41 Jurras. it is a 1.298 long necked down cut down 30-06 case. it does in fact have a neck. its what I have in mind but longer to fit in the ak mag.

on page 286 there is the .375/38-40 another cut down 06 shell it is 1.125 long
on pg 282 there is the .375 shanon same thing but 1.315 long
I think all that it would take to make this is the correct set of custom dies.
some of these would fill the same void that your 9x39 would
 
#42 ·
The .416's would be a little pricey to just go plinking with for me. $1+ a pop just for the bullet.

I haven't found a tapered expander for this. I was going to turn one on the lathe, but just don't have the time right now. I think that RCBS all uses the same thread so if one was made it might be able to be used between the 444 and 44mag die which ever one would work the best. I was going to get a 444 die, but Midway is out.

I have a metal .223 single stack on the way to see if it might be useable. In an AR mag the round just noses into the front of the mag and the last round just pops right out. Maybe someday there will be an AK 450BM magazine.

For the .375, can the std 7.62x39 be necked up? No fuss with mags and bolt face opening.
 
#43 ·
I still think the best magazine will be a straight no-taper design. Curious to see how that 223 mag will work.

I don't think the x39 can be necked up to accomodate a .375 without using an expander die. I neced up to .358 and it is basically a straight-walled cartridge like that. Nothing to headspace from, either. So if you did, and had to ream it, you'd be getting the brass pretty thin I think.
 
#44 ·
For the .375, can the std 7.62x39 be necked up? No fuss with mags and bolt face opening.
No 7.62x39 not big enough DIA

I still think the best magazine will be a straight no-taper design. Curious to see how that 223 mag will work.
I have been thinking that a straight single stack mag made from tubing or bent in a break would be very doable. the round is very straight.
To be honest I think if one were to make there own mags then they might as well make the round slightly longer and forget about the AR mag length. One of the great advantages of the AK is the mag well can easly be enlarged. this sort of brings me back to my original 444 rimless marlin idea. I want something that still allows use of a standard reciver and gives good finger clearance in the trigger guard. If a 223 mag can be done easily then I will want to do one in that length as well. I do have a AR reciver sitting here that I am not sure what to do with. a AR & AK in 44???? would be cool.
I wonder if a reamer maker would cut us a deal on several reamers on a group buy?? or get one reamer and have one guy do several barrels. the head space issues are still a concern in 44 to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The .416's would be a little pricey to just go plinking with for me. $1+ a pop just for the bullet.
UH yea just started looking at that. Yikes found some for around 75 cents each (speer) also saw some at over $4.00 each(trophy bonded sledghamer solid 25 for $135)
cast lead would be doable for plinking . the .410 pistol bullets are cheaper but kind of defeats the whole idea of using rifle bullets.
the .375 still looks very doable and might be the best round all of them. the price is better, selection is good, better MV and lighter recoil. and better optimazation of limited powder capacity.
to many caliburs to little time!!
 
#45 ·
Was looking at the .41 JMP automag that you posted. That little shoulder didn't sound like much, so I drew the top of the case out and it is more than what I thought. RCBS makes a die set, forming die, taper expanding die, trim die, and neck reaming die.

If you really wanted something big you could use the 400gr .410's for the 450-400 Nitro Express.
 
#46 ·
Make it the .44 RAGNAROK!

Ragnarok is the Norse legend of the Final Day of Reckoning. The Twilight of the Gods.

Seems fitting since others like to name their pet wildcats after Epic Heroes. :)
 
#49 ·
Someone buys me a reamer they can call it what ever they want. LOL.

I really need to know if 44 mag dies can really seat and crimp it. I need to get a way to expand the 30-06 brass down to the base so I can properly full length size it in the 444 marlin dies.
 
#50 ·
A thought - the .375 or even the .41 Mag bullets need a neck, right? OK.

Take this one step further, and open up the .06 cartridge at the neck BEFORE you cut it. Presto, you have a neck for your .375 or 41 Ragnarok and you could probably use .06 headspace gauges.

Yeah, I know it kind of takes away from the original .44 idea, but since you're thinking about varations I figure that couldn't hurt. You could still use .06 mags like a BAR mag, or possibly 8mm mags like the MG-15 mag.
 
#51 ·
If you cut at the neck were would you seat the bullet?? another alternitive for a large bore in that length would be necking up a 358 win (358win is a necked up 308) to .375.

I have some RCBS 44 mag dies coming to play with on the 44???. I think I will try to fire form the cut 06 brass in my 444 marlin dies to blow out the case then try to seat and crimp with the 44 marlin dies. Once A actual gun it built then fire forming can be done in it. I think the 06 brass can be taper expanded as well. I have been wanting to build one of those in die fire forming set ups anyway. It might be possable to just cut the 06 brass to size expand the neck the neck, seat the bullet with 44 dies then just shoot it in the built gun plinking with lead bullets. the fired brass will then be blown out. the catch 22 is you need a round that is all formed and finalized to design the chamber off of.
I am thinking a throating reamer can be used first then follwed by boring the sligtly tapered chamber in the lathe by using the tool post set at the proper angle. how ever the chamber is cut, it is going to need a very prounced step from chamber to free bore to headspace off of.
 
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