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44????

35K views 236 replies 12 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 · (Edited)
So not to highjack the 450 Bushmaster thread.

This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
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The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed.

To answer some of 1bigguns questions.

The left one is a standard 44mag, the center is the 44???, and of course a 7.62x39. I don't know why in the pic the case looks like it was cut with a hacksaw, it wasn't. The length is 1.700 inch. Don't remember why that length as you can almost get a 2 inch case by cutting a 30.06 at the shoulder. Maybe it was to use a standard die, but the 444 would be the only thing close or maybe it was close in case volume to another conversion cartridge to have a starting point for loading. Before setting a length I would want to get some 180 to 300 grain bullets to see what the OAL would be. It was just one of those lets see thing.
 
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#53 ·
Been away for a few days. The 223 single stack still is not here.

The RCBS expander for the 44magnum die is a 9/16 SAE thread, so I will have to turn a tapered one or turn a bushing to use the expander setup out of the 7.62x39. The 7.62 has two removeable expanders so it shouldn't be to hard to turn another to .426 (size of the 44mag expander).
 
#54 ·
Gunter you may want to make 2 differant ones on with a lot of taper and one that will reach all the way down almost flush to the bottom. When you expand do you have to have a die to support the case or can you just run in with the expander sticking way out????? I was looking at my adjustable reamers and it might be doable for cutting a straight wall chamber (like HC suggested some were). I was thinking it might be possable to add a pilot to the threaded part of one of these. it looks like a piloted thrating reamer can be had for around $30 my thinking is run that first then set up the adjustable reamer with the correct tapper and run that in second. it looks like the adjustiable reamer will cut a sharp edge to headspace off of. Just thinking outloud here.
 
#55 ·
The 7.62 has two removeable expanders so it shouldn't be to hard to turn another to .426 (size of the 44mag expander).
you are going to want the expander bigger than .426 because 44 mag is a non taperd round. the 444 marlin is bigger at the base than 44 mag so you are going to whant a bigger expander. I think what you want to do is expand the entire cut 30-06 case straight (no taper) then run it back through the 444 marlin die to give it the taper. then run it through the 44 mag die to do the neck and seat the bullet. my prototype brass resulted in .456 at the neck and .465 at he base. I am thinking you would want a expander .009 larger than the bullet. my bullet measures .429 (on my cheap calipurs) so that should give a expander of .438. now I am assuming the brass is the same thickness all the way back to the base. it may not be and also all brass is not the same. millitary is thicker so if you are useing that then then it all goes out the window. I am using some remington for my inital set up. what I am invesiong in the finished brass is a nice straight taper from the base to the area were the bullet is seated aprox .450 back from the mouth.
 
#56 ·
ID reaming can be tricky because you would need to ensure you don't cut into the web at the base.

You can get a neck reamer and run it down into the case to the depth you require. I'm thinking about doing a slightly different version of a neck reamer to ream the ID of the military brass like this:

1. Make a sulfur casting of the inside of the good cartridge, *or* cut it in half. Either way, I would get the actual ID measurements of the entire cartridge.

2. Either find an adjustable reamer or build my own to match the ID. The taper will ensure the web at the bottom will be preserved. The pilot could be the primer hole.

3. Chuck it in a drill press or case trimmer and trim the brass.

I think it should be that easy. The benefit of doing this is that you have the greater case capacity without sacrificing safety.

This is what I've thought up for the .06 brass I'm going to cut down to 45 Winchester Magnum.


A question - have you looked around on other wildcatting forums like the accuratereloading.com forums? Someone may have already paved the way and may have some tips/insights to help out.
 
#57 ·
Funny you should bring that up HC. I was just there last night reading a thread that was close to what this is only using a full length .06 case. They were asking about a rimless 444 Marlin like 1 biggun wants. The two main concerns were taper for feeding/extraction and headspacing off of the mouth with the pressures that it would run at. I can post a link to the thread if it's not against the rules here and you might have to login to read.

They got into using .416 bullets with a shoulder and going up to a .284 case and using a shoulder with the .429. The 450 BM has to headspace off of the mouth, so guess Hornady got it to work?

The easiest might be to just go with the .375 Shannon or the .375/38-40. .375 rifle length barrels are easy to come by and a good selection of bullets.
 
#58 ·
I have an account over there, I'll try to check it out later.

The BM is going to be easy to headspace - the gauge itself needs to be 1.7" to ensure it is bottomed out, and you're going to set it from that. The same thing would need to be done for the 44 ?? by making sure the gauge has a distinct edge to contact the edge of the chamber. I don't really see what the trick is, because all other straight-wall cartridges like 9mm, .40 SW, .45 ACP, etc all do the same thing.

Could you blow out an .06 or 308 case to eliminate needing to cut it down? That would be quite interesting. That's what I was thinking when I said cutting at the neck and using a taper expander to open the remaining taper of the case to full size. You could fireform it too, I think. Either way, you would end up with an .06/308 case that is misisng only the neck and is enlarged to .44 caliber size. Then you'd need to find an appropriately large magazine and you're set.
 
#60 ·
Here's the thread:

Max bore for -06 case? - Topic Powered by eve community

If it is against the rules, mods please delete.

I forgot to answer one of your questions 1biggun. On the 44 magnum dies set the first die is the FL outside die and primer pin. The next die is the inside expander. The expander die has lots of room between the outside of the case and the inside of the die. So really it is just sort of self centering.

Has anyone heard of sealing problems when going over the 36,000 psi (SAAMI 44 mganum) with straight walled cases? Plus the 44 Ragnarok might need to be inside reamed to a depth like the 44 automag to keep the bullet from walking in under recoil.
 
#62 ·
Has anyone heard of sealing problems when going over the 36,000 psi (SAAMI 44 mganum) with straight walled cases?
I have not. The .45-70 max loads for heavy rifles approach 40-50,000 CUP depending on whose loads you reference.
Plus the 44 Ragnarok might need to be inside reamed to a depth like the 44 automag to keep the bullet from walking in under recoil.
Crimping is another solution to ensure no bullet walking. I would like this more than reaming because I'd be concerned about long-term brass flow, and the possible need for additional future reaming if the case were to expand after repeated firings. But maybe I'm being too analytical about it?
 
#61 ·
I found this nugget while reading that thread -

"Ken Howell's book Custom Cartridges lists it as the .444 Marlin Rimless (aka .425 Rimless Express.) Basically, a .30-06 basic case trimmed to 2.225" (same length as the .444) Headspaces on the mouth just like a .30 Carbine."

Interesting, no? That would eliminate a great deal of effort. ".30-06 basic" brass. I wonder if that means untapered. I know the "45 basic" brass is what .45-70 is made from, it is trimmed down to size to make .45-70. Where to find "basic" brass is the question.



Also this:

"The 10.75x57 Mannlicher was chambered in both the 1888 and the 1898 Mausers.

The 10.75x57 was the 8x57 expanded to .424 bullet diameter,it was introduced around 1900 and became obsolete within a few years.Measurements were base .468,shoulder .465,and the neck was .448.

It is believed that headspacing problems were responsible for it's being dropped from Mauser's line of chamberings.Feeding problems and the fact that it was underpowered for the game it was used on may have contributed to it becoming obsolete."


That's another option - use 8mm brass. The 8mm base is very close to a .308/.06 base and in some cases (if not all) the bolts are interchangeable. A neck of .445 should work for for a .45 build as well... slight reaming and it would be perfect.
 
#63 ·
Now to blow our minds a little more.... how about a .243 WSSM necked up and rebated rim?

medium bore wssm's! - Topic Powered by eve community

I think that the one in the pic is a 45 ACP bullet. That would give us a shoulder. Wonder how the chamber wall thickness would hold up in an AK sized barrel?

ETA: Way OT but funnier than hell:
[video=youtube;CQJSZs-euZU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQJSZs-euZU]YouTube - Rifle Shooting[/video]
 
#64 ·
Has anyone heard of sealing problems when going over say 20-25,000 psi with straight walled cases? Plus the 44 Ragnarok might need to be inside reamed to a depth like the 44 automag to keep the bullet from walking in under recoil.
I cant see why this would be a problem! The 44??? will be nothing more than a 444 marlin but shorter with no rim. the 444marlin is loaded to aprox 45,000 psi does not have to be inside reamed or have sealing proplems. perhaps the longer full length 06 case will have more problems due to less taper over a greater length?? the 50 beowulf is pretty straight and I dont think the 450 BM is inside reamed to keep the bullet from moving back.
I hope to design my 44??? to crimp on the groove on the 265 GR bullets that I have. My biggest concerns are getting that big flat bullet to feed into the barrel with out jaming or binding the breach ID is only .035 larger than the bore. it is going to need to go in pretty straight.
A .375 version keeps looking more atttractive to me

My 44 mag dies should be here any day. and I have a barrel blank, but that is susposed to be for the 444 rimless but I have been thinking the shorter 44 might be just as good and work on a standard reciver. plus if it is a bust I can always rechamber to the longer 444 rimless down the road. It looks like all I can turn on centers in my lathe is 19" so that is what any of my 44 builds will be with the numrich blanks will be limited to.
the 99 dollar Question is who is going to step up and be the first to buy ,build, or bore a sussceful 44??? reamer or chamber
 
#65 ·
I think the WSSM necked up and fully loaded would excede the safe threshold of the AK(what ever that is) not to mention the amount of barrel it would displace as HC pointed out. If I recall correctly the levithan series of ammo used various WSSM necked up and cut down for the mini 14,s. Of course you could down load the WSSM wild cat but then you might as well stick to cut down 30-06 brass IMOA.
I read the link about the rimless 444 posted by gunter and relized that it basicaly said the same stuff that I had been saying about the head spacing and using 444 marlin dies on 06 brass. I am starting to think a phone call to some one like Z hat might be a wise decision at this point. I feel if the 450 bushmaster will feed and headspace in a AR then the 44??? should be doable in a AR and likely a AK as basical the 44?? is just a slightly smaller ID version.
 
#66 ·
#67 ·
I was thinking that the 30 benchrest brass might work for a .375 or .41 build necked up and still fitting in a AK mag. its pricy. but about the right length

Do you have a link to the 7mm mauser once fired brass?? I have a M98 with a shilen barrel that I need to load for.
 
#69 ·
$18.22 for 100 30-06 cases is not to bad. the 7mm is a little pricey though. what suprised me was the 06 was cheaper than the 308 ??????.

I got my 44 mag die set today it is a 4 die set so i am going to have to figure whats up with that. I think one die is a odd ball seating die unmarked and is square at the top??? going out to cut some 06 brass up now.
 
#71 ·
this appears more like a misc die that he through in (ebay used crap)

I went out and cut some 30-06 brass to 1.850 expanded straight (as best I could with some misc die parts)1. sized it in my 444 marlin die with the original expander removed.
2. rexpanded the neck/bullet area with the 444 marlin dies. 3 seated the bullet with a 44 magnum die it didnot give much tension on the bullet so I 3. ran it through the 444 marlin seater and it seems to put a good squease on the bullet.
I ended up with 3 rounds that If I had primed and powderd would not be afraid to try to fire.
The only reason I needed the 44 mag die was that the 444 marlin seater/ the part that pushes the bullet down would not screw down far enough to fully seat the bullet. I really think this can all be done with a slightly modifed die set. Or perhaps a differant brand of 444 marlin dies that has a longer seating range. I can easly modify my seater to work and still be functional to do 444 marlin as well. A expander to straighten the brass out is a must if you want a nice taperd round. I think once I come up with chamber you could skip the expanding and just fire form the case buy shooting it.

I then went out and made one with primer and powder just to say I have the first functional 444??? biggun special or a 11x46 Gunco special or a 430x1.85" or the 444 rimless short mag or the 444 SURT well any way I got the round now I need the gun.
 
#73 ·
Very cool!

You're going to need a straight mag, no doubt. You could either:

1. Adapt a .308 magazine to fit, or use one of the .308 Saiga mags out there.

or

2. Cut off the top of the AK mag and weld it to an appropriately-sized length of rectangular steel tubing.
 
#74 ·
Congrats! Looks like Midway has the 444 Marlin dies back in stock so I'll be ordering them today along with a factory crimp die. Did the standard 444 Marlin die roll the mouth of the case much? What size expander or expanders did you use to open the case up before sizing in the 444 Marlin die?

I was going to make up a dummy chamber to test feeding if K-Var would ever get the .223 magazine shipped. If we can get it to feed then we should be set. Then time for a chamber reamer.
 
#75 ·
I expanded it WAY oversize with a misc expander turned backwards. I never really measured it but it was bigger than a .45 bullet. I even got one stuck in my die and had to pound it out with a hammer. I cut a round lengthwise, and the walls do get thicker toward the bottom. so care needs to be taken not to cause damage at the base. perhaps a taperd expander that would match the brass would be doable. if you expand down about 75% down you get pretty good results. I get no roll crimp with the dies I am useing likely due to the shell case being shorter. a couple possabiltys here,1. shorten the die or2. maybe a 44 mag crimping die I am concerned that the 44 mag die will try to size the case down as the 44 mag has a smaller OD,.3. I am planing to get a Lee factory crimp die ($10) in 444 marlin and try that it might need to be shortend to work on this round. the factory crimp die works by puttind a series of littlr demples at the neck. I think this would be better than a roll crimp for head spacing issues and also does not require a groove.
I am still very concerned with feeding and extraction of this round. I converted the case demensions of the 450 bushmaster specs that HC posted to inches. I found that the 450 bushmaster tapers down .022" from base to mouth. My round only has .009" less than half. this means that the bushmaster has a .013 more clearance when entering the breach. the tromix 444 marlin has a shrouded barrel to aid feeding the same as the .410 SG so non of that build applies here. I am expecting to have to champer the breach considerably (not sure how much case/base can be left unsuported?) and a lot of feed ramp and or mag work to get this thing to feed. to get them to fit in a AK mag. IF the Hornady bullets were avaliable this would likely be easier. The hornady bullets might require a shorter case I left some room with this case length for a longer bullet but not a lot. I want to build a bolt gun as well if I buy a reamer so even if I cant get this to work on a ak the reamer will still be of use. I am still looking for a way to do this nearly straight chamber with out a $150 reamer.
 
#77 ·
For the crimp, try this:

1. seat a bullet to the proper length
2. adjust the bullet seater way out
3. screw the die down closer to the base until the crimp is formed
4. screw the bullet seater down to the bullet


This should give you what you need. Too much crimp is usually bad, so don't make that mistake. Some of the factory 308 I have is crimped so tightly that the bullet is deformed!


About getting the mag to feed -

Consider setting back the center support if you have to. I managed to get my .308 build to work by relocating the center support back about 3/16" or so. It is now 5.1" from the front of the receiver. I had to cut the hammer some near the pivot to get it to fit without getting stuck on the spring. A small tweak, but it gives you quite a bit of extra space to play with!
 
#78 ·
Hc the problem I have is the die bottoms out on the shell holder before it forms a crimp with the 444 marlin dies. the 44 mag dies start to reform the larger case when I try to use them.
I think this thing is going to kick like hell and there is going to need to be a pretty decent crimp. not to mention that the bullet is going to have to contend with a bullet guide and the breach opening to load its self. I also want to avoid a roll crimp as it will affect headspace. I am really hopeing a lee factory crimp will be the answer in conjunction with a crimp groove in the bullet. Right now I am working with hornady 265 GR semi jacketed Flat Points as being my primary load for this build. before I finalize my case length I need to make sure the barrel twist is correct and what other bullets I may want to use, I am sure that I want to be able to shoot cheaper an lighter cast lead stuff as well but suspect that this thing is going to be finicky as far as feeding. I wonder how the bushmaster is crimped??
 
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