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44????

35K views 236 replies 12 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 · (Edited)
So not to highjack the 450 Bushmaster thread.

This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
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The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed.

To answer some of 1bigguns questions.

The left one is a standard 44mag, the center is the 44???, and of course a 7.62x39. I don't know why in the pic the case looks like it was cut with a hacksaw, it wasn't. The length is 1.700 inch. Don't remember why that length as you can almost get a 2 inch case by cutting a 30.06 at the shoulder. Maybe it was to use a standard die, but the 444 would be the only thing close or maybe it was close in case volume to another conversion cartridge to have a starting point for loading. Before setting a length I would want to get some 180 to 300 grain bullets to see what the OAL would be. It was just one of those lets see thing.
 
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#107 ·
went to a gun show yesterday and found a steel mag marked 223 10 round it is longer than a Bulgy plastic mag so it is possably a 15 round. it had a 5 round follower in it. it wont fit in my 223 varmit build that is fitted for bulgy and pro mags. Im not sure what it is . BUT it will hold a 444?? pretty well and it is steel so I can weld on it.




 
#108 ·
I havent given up on this project. I have a 44 mag barrel coming for my H&R handi rifle I plan to ream it to 44????WTF and use it for load development it is a strong action incase I get the loads wrong and a cheap way to get another gun+ it will be nice to have once I get the AK project done, things are being stalled due to lack of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. I was hoping to have it done by november for deer season not sure Im going to make it.
 
#109 ·
Cool! Just getting into the Handi thing and picked up a 30.06 barrel. Now I'll have to be on the lookout for a 44mag. Keep us posted on how it goes.
 
#110 ·
There fun n cheap to play with im going to rechamber a 223 into a 22-243 middlestead. this will be a 1-9 twist varmit slayer shoots 50 grainers at 4000 FPS APROX, barrel life will be limited but for 150 dollars its worth a try. the graybeard sight has a lot of info on these.
 
#111 ·
bump 41 cal info around page 5. the 41 jauras is close

there is to much thought put into this 444???? for it not to be built buy a few guys here it is completly doable. mine would be done If I had bought a better blank.

a 375 and a 41 version would really be a good round as well
 
#112 ·
Here's some more info on the 444 rimless. Looks like the 44??? is just a short 444 rimless.

A "Rimless" 444 Marlin... - Page 2 - Shooters Forum

Don't know what's up with the link. Go to the box at the top of the page and click DAW A "Rimless" 444 Marlin.

I gave up on finding a Handi 44 mag barrel, so a 44 mag barrel is on the way. I'll make it into another insert for testing.
 
#113 ·
Sounds like they've done some of the ground work for you! :) Other than length, sounds about like the same deal. You could probably - maybe - use .444 reloading dies and run the seater down deeper to seat in the shorter cartrige. Or just cut of the bottom 1/2" or so.
 
#114 ·
That's what I was thinking on cutting the 444 dies off.

1biggun what is the mouth od on the 3 you made up?
 
#115 ·
Good link to bad his sight wont open up. its two years old.

My case mouth OD is .457 with a .4295 bullet pressed in(hornady 265GR ) Keep in mind that I have not crimped it any so it might reduce if we can find a way to crimp in the bullet like with the lee factory crimp. THIS IS WITH REMINGTON BRASS AND LIKELY WILL VARY FROM BRAND ESPECIALY MILITERY BRASS THAT IS THICKER. I was able to make my rounds with out cutting a die down. I need to get a expander for this round so can have straight consistant brass to play with.

I got to admit I feel a little bit exhonerated knowing that Im not the only crazy guy out there thinking like this. I also feel like I have done a pretty good job of thinking ahead as it seems that I have most if not all the bases coverd for the 444??? or the full length rimless 444 marlin (wich was the original plan for a AK and still a good one IMOA). He is using a reamer and a seperate throater just like I thought would be best although I still think it might be possable to cut THE CHAMBER with a boring bar set at the correct angle. I wonder if he ever thought of it as a autoloader round like we have LOL??

I gave up on finding a Handi 44 mag barrel, so a 44 mag barrel is on the way. I'll make it into another insert for testing.
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your loosing me here are you building a handi rifle for testing??? or just using the barrel on a AK. I think this a good idea to build a handi from a 44 mag and if it dont work you could always open it up to a 444 marlin as long as the extractor issues can be overcome. That 44-06 he was doing sounds pretty cool as well on a bolt gun. I have a couple of handi rifles and was thinking if I bought a reamer I would do a bolt action and a Handi as well just to off set the cost of the reamer.

In need to decide on a overall length and stick with it. it sounds like it is important to keep the bullet lead short and for a specific bullet. I really wish hornady start selling or some one else would come out with a pointy bullet for this round.

YOU KNOW THAT IF 3 OR 4 GUYS POOLED THERE MONEY TOGETHER AND BOUGHT A REAMER AND THROATER(THROATER COULD ALSO LIKELY BE USED FOR THE ROUGHER) THIS WOULD BE A LOT CHEAPER TO DO FOR ALL OF US. I WOULD WANT A REAMER THAT WOULD WORK WITH BRASS MADE FROM A STANDARD RCBS OR LEE 444MARLIN DIE. IF THE DIE HAS TO BE MODIFED BY SHORTING IT SO BE IT AS LONG AS IT IS REPEATABLE AN STANDARDISED FOR OTHERS TO DUPLICATE. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO MAKE THE OVERALL LENGTH SHORT ENOUGH THAT ANY BULLET THAT CAME ALONG IN THE FUTURE LIKE THE HORNADY LEVERLUTION SOFTTIP, WOULD STILL ALLOW IT TO BE SEATED OUT PROPERLY AND STILL FIT IN A AK/AR MAG .THEN IF THE THING ACTUALLY FEED AND FIRED THE REAMER COULD BE REPRODUCED FROM THE PRINT AS NEEDED.

I AM CERTAIN IT WILL MAKE A NICE BOLT ACTION OR SINGLE SHOT ROUND. iM A LITTLE CONCERNED ABOUT GETTING A ALMOST STRAIGHT ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER WITH OUT JAMING
 
#116 ·
As for the Handi, I was wanting to get a 44 mag barrel for the SB1 frame. Then work the chamber over the 44???. I just ordered one of the barrels that HC posted and am sure it will need to be sleeved for use either in the AK or as a barrel insert for the 10ga Handi barrel (do not install inserts or high power rifle barrels in standard Handi shotgun frames). I'm going to try it in the Handi first and go from there.

Yep, one of the things we need to decide on is the length of the case. I also think that it would be best to cut the chamber and throat in two different operations. I was looking at Clymer yesterday and they don't show a throater for the 44 mag. So everything might need to be special made.

Looking at the 45acp at the mouth there is only .001 clearence and .003 at the base. Like you said just switching to Mil-spec cases might result in a round not chambering. I'm going to get a 444 die set and use your steps and see if the cases come out the same as yours.
 
#117 ·
A few thoughts - you may be able to get away with .44 mag dies, just run them in shorter. Maybe... depends on case diameter at the point where a .44 base would normally be. That, with the purchase of a .444 Marlin full-length sizing die, and you may not need to make any mods at all!

About the case length - everything needs to fit in an AR / AK mag. That dimension is the starting point as I have understood it. Exactly which AR frame is open to debate - .308 size (AR-10) or .223 size (AR-15) frame? The use of an AK frame is actually pretty easy, since you have a .308 AK to work with, and that would need only a barrel swap! That may be worth the extra cost of the rifle, because magazines are now available from several places!

Personally I think that the 1.7 size is good enough - 1.75 maybe? It assumes you'll be using .308 / .06 family brass as the parent cartridge.



Feed angles for this should not be a concern. It may need a new feed ramp, but other than that it should feed fine, unless you're using a hollow point so big it looks like a shot cup. That may be a moot issue anyway.


About the expander issue - this is exactly what I was concerned with for the .45 WinMag with the "donor" brass I'm converting. Without fireforming, it will create an hourglass-shaped case since the parent cartridge is slightly tapered, and you're enlarging slightly beyond that point.

Fireforming is the only practical way to "fix" this issue and make it a truly straight taper without building a fancy expander that is purpose-built to expand that sucker out. That said, you COULD shape the brass to the final shape using only reloading tools, ASSUMING you build yourself a "full length expander". If you do that, then the brass forming would be like this:

  1. Cut the parent cartridge to length
  2. Expand the parent cartridge with the "full length expander"
  3. Full length size the brass in a suitable full-length sizing die (444 Marlin?)
  4. Neck Ream for .44/.41 bullets > optional step, possibly not necessary, (this is done for .44 Automag so it remains to be seen if this cartridge would need it...)
  5. Expand like normal
  6. Seat bullet like normal
  7. Crimp like normal

That would get you where you need, and you would not need to fireform. I am experimenting with this very thing for my .45 WinMag because I'm sitting on enough donor brass to make this worth my while. The only difference here is the "full length expander" for the .44 ? / .41 ? cartridges will be longer!

Making a full-length expander is simple - mount the expander ball (aka ram) in the lathe and cut it to shape. The normal expanders have a taper near where the top of the original cartridge sits so it flares the case... you are going to cut it back so that point is higher up on the ram, closer to the threads. Polish and you're done. I am using a .44 expander for my .45 WinMag "full length expander" experiment. I'm doing all of this because I don't know that I will be able to fireform all of my brass due to my work schedule, and I am genuinely curious if this will work. I don't see why not, except that I may need to anneal the cases first. They aren't getting expanded much, but you never can tell if you'll split them. We'll see.
 
#118 ·
A few thoughts - you may be able to get away with .44 mag dies, just run them in shorter. Maybe... depends on case diameter at the point where a .44 base would normally be. That, with the purchase of a .444 Marlin full-length sizing die, and you may not need to make any mods at all!
I tried 44 dies and they hit the case way before the bullet is seated due to the taper of the larger case. so I think it is safe to rule out 44 dies except possably shortend way down and then only to crimp. I was able to make my rounds with just 444 marlin dies and some misc die parts that to be honest way over expanded the neck and would not reach far enough down to do the rest of the case. there are commercialy avaliable expadder dies that will work. all that needs to happen is get the case expanded sligtly over size 75% of the way down. resizing it in a 444 marlin die will get it back to were you want it.

Personally I think that the 1.7 size is good enough - 1.75 maybe? It assumes you'll be using .308 / .06 family brass as the parent cartridge.
IMOA we can go longer right up to were I made mine possably just a tad shorter. there is lots of clearance in a 223 mag with a 265 bullet that was seated to the canalure. I am not positive a hornady leverlution bullet will fit but it woud be as simple as buying a box of 444 marlin or 44 mag and bulling a bullet. as far as going with heavier bullets like cast or 300 grain jacketed it will work as is also keep in mind as bullet weights go up powder must be reduced. so seating the heavier bullets in some will not really hurt an thing.
My plan is to size to make sure the hornady stuff will be doable in the future. and add just a little extra.
1.800-1.825 is what im thinking 1.800 comes out to roughly 46mm. this round could easly be called a 11 x 46????? (1.810)
I want to give this thing as much case capacity as possable so that with light bullets it will really take on the 450 bushmaster, 458 socom. 50 beowulf in the FPS/trajectory race.
here is a few picks of my round in a promag. the problemwith plastic is the mag wil need to have the lips slitly pinched in or added onto to keep the round sitting flat.
 
#119 ·
Yeah that "over expanding" part of the expanding die is what I'm talking about - cut that point back closer to the threads so the tip of the expander can reach deeper into the cartridge to open it up deeper.

Maybe taper it based on the measurements of the case and presto your "full length expander" is done. Actually now that I think about it you'd need to do that because you would not want to expand way down at the bottom where the web is, because you'd end up getting the expander stuck in the case! That would be a bugger to remove!
 
#120 ·


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Pics of 3 444???? in a pro mag 223 pro mag. note how the round tips up. also pleanty of room for a 265 grain .

as far as aover expanding that was only because I was using what I had on hand. it would have not been a issue at all with the correct mandrel. the only reasion it needs to be expanded as far down is the 308 & 30-06 have more taper

If all that was done was fulllength sizing of a cut 30-06 round it would still work fine you would just have a slight hour glass shaped round for the first firing. it still would likely shoot fine and cycle and all that. If you look cloosly at my rounds there is still some slight receding below were the bullet is seated. It would kind of be like shooting a 22-250 in a 22-250 improved chamber it will shoot fine and form the case at the same time.
personaly I will expand first as accuracy is a issue and slight case capacity varations will hurt it some.

for what its worth the 30-06 brass is easier to use because it allows you to cut below the neck. 308 would recuire cutting and expanding the throat.

also trimming 444 dies some would not hurt as the base of the round on reminton brass is .466 not the .473 listed in most books. the rim and base is not even close to touching the die even when doing a 444 marlin rimless round.

IMOA die trimming is only going to be nessacry if you want to roll crimp with that die, since it will not reach completly to the top of the die. . Roll crimping is not advisable here as we need to head space of the mouth. I am hoping a trimed down lee factory crimp die can be used if it is even nessacry to crimp at all. A 44 mag die cut way down might crimp as well but will not work for sizing.
honestly feel I could shoot the ammo I have made as it with the correct load of powder.
 
#121 ·
Yeah that "over expanding" part of the expanding die is what I'm talking about - cut that point back closer to the threads so the tip of the expander can reach deeper into the cartridge to open it up deeper.
thinking back on this some more the whole reason I had to expanf with a mandral in the first placewas because the original expander in the 444 marlin dies was way to big to just open up the 30-06 case and would crush it. I had to open the mouth sligtly to get the expader started. other than that it would have formed brass as is but with a hour glass area past were the bullet was seated.

Yep, one of the things we need to decide on is the length of the case. I also think that it would be best to cut the chamber and throat in two different operations. I was looking at Clymer yesterday and they don't show a throater for the 44 mag. So everything might need to be special made.
I agree 100% this will allow barrels to be custom made for specific bullets by adjusting the leed.

I saw .430 throaters some were and they were only like $30. i think they use them in forcing cones and cylinders on revolvers. they must be avaliable as guys play with .44 rifles a lot.


Looking at the 45acp at the mouth there is only .001 clearence and .003 at the base. Like you said just switching to Mil-spec cases might result in a round not chambering.
a simple inside neck turning would take care of this should it a rise. I persoanly plan to use Reminton brass as I have a few boxes to play with. However before I were to buy a reamer I would definatly want to try a buch of differant cases and see what has the thickest cases and try to design around that I would also be open to input before ordering a reamer. Commercial cases make the most sense to me because they allow the most case capacty. HOWEVER the thicker the neck for head spacing the better. Is there any cheap military 30-06 once fired brass out there for sale??? I know there is a lot of 308 stuff and it should be considerd for use as well but will likely require aneailng.
 
#123 ·
I swear Clymers site didn't show a 44 throater. LOL.

A 444 Marlin die set and a Lee factory crimp 444 is on the way. If we can do this without trimming the dies, that would be better.
 
#125 ·
A 444 Marlin die set and a Lee factory crimp 444 is on the way. If we can do this without trimming the dies, that would be better.
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cool I would like to know how the crimp works before buying one. the crimp is hopefully the only thing that may need to be trimmed. good news is there reasonably cheap. lee will custom make you one as well.

you know it would be possable to buy/have made a CHAMBER reamer that did a short throat for a specific bullet the shortest one we would consider and then seperatly neck ream it deeper for other stuff. that way a guy could shoot the chamber as is and then open it up for other stuff later. I like the idea of one reamer cutting the lip for the head space and the start or most of the throat all at once. just thinking out loud here.

If i was the only one interesed in this I would likely just copy a 444 marlin throat length and be done with it. the 265 GR hornady is what I want to shoot mainly but I would like to play with cast lead and other lighter bullets. If the hornady people would get off there ass and sell the pointed bullets they make for there own ammo this would really wake this round up. or just a good jacketed softpont pointed rifle hunting round.

i know a guy who bought one of those new marlin leveractions in a hornady wonder round to find out he cant buy bullets to reload for it. He is pissed off big time!
 
#126 ·
The dies showed up, but the barrel won't be here till next week.

The crimp die will not work as is. Both the outside and inside pieces will need to be trimmed. Might be easier to use a 44mag crimp die with a spacer. Anyone know how to get a Lee crimp die apart or can it come apart?

The 444 dies are Lee also. Didn't mess with the FL die. The expander is just a turned sleeve that shouldn't be to hard to make a longer one on the lathe. The expander on the 44mag die is .424 and the one for the 444 is .426 and tapers to .430. Probably will make two different sizes of expanders to expand the case a little at a time in each step. The seating die also could probably just use a longer stem to seat the bullet. Again something that shouldn't be to hard to crank out on the lathe.

I went to Sportsman's Warehouse the other day to see about picking up some Leverlution ammo. Nothing in 44mag or 444 Marlin. I did pick up some 300gr Speer bullets to see how they work.
 
#127 ·
I had to clean a 223 taper crimp die. I used a wooden dowel inserted in the top of the die to push the internal sliding part out of the bottem. It just had a raised ring on the collet part that rested against a recess in the die body to keep it from comming out. I don't know if the 444 taper crimp dies and the 223 dies are made the same though.
 
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