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44????

35K views 236 replies 12 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 · (Edited)
So not to highjack the 450 Bushmaster thread.

This was one of those "what if" things while waiting for some parts to show up. I was looking for ease of making brass and something that wasn't proprietary to a maker. I wouldn't want to spend 30 minutes per case to have the AK punt it to China or dent the crap out of it. Or send a barrel to someone to cut a chamber for X2-X3 times the cost of what a reamer would be and I could cut it myself. So, a 30.06 case cut below the shoulder, some 44 mag bullets that were on hand, and you get something like this.
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The case would have to be fire formed as you can see from the pic that there is a dip below the seated bullet. The lead on top of it was smashed in the loading due to not having a 44mag seating die at the time. The case has not been crimped. On the 44automag they inside neck reamed to a depth of .590 which might be needed to help keep the bullet from moving under recoil...don't know. A Lee factory crimp might keep it in place or might need a canalure in the case....don't know. A RCBS 44mag neck sizer is too big to start in the case, so an expander cone is needed.

To answer some of 1bigguns questions.

The left one is a standard 44mag, the center is the 44???, and of course a 7.62x39. I don't know why in the pic the case looks like it was cut with a hacksaw, it wasn't. The length is 1.700 inch. Don't remember why that length as you can almost get a 2 inch case by cutting a 30.06 at the shoulder. Maybe it was to use a standard die, but the 444 would be the only thing close or maybe it was close in case volume to another conversion cartridge to have a starting point for loading. Before setting a length I would want to get some 180 to 300 grain bullets to see what the OAL would be. It was just one of those lets see thing.
 
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#159 ·
there are a few versions of this round out there. I have fomed cut down 30-06 brass using 444 marlin dies I was going to use it in my 308 conversion with a rebarrel but then when Gunter began thinking of a shorter version that would work in a AK/AR amg well that I decided to build on a 7.62X39. set up. there is a 444 rimles thread here as well that I started before this thread thatGunter actualy started. there have been a few bolt guns but to my Knowledge know one has done a auto like this with a AK kength mag.
this gun will get built I have bought a barrel blank and dies as well as made up several loaded rounds. gunter Is invested in this project as well. I have to many projects and limited funds to get it done imeaditly. there is a kit marked 444 rimless sitting here and the bolt face is done.
 
#160 ·
I wish there were 48 hours in a day. Just not enough time with all the stuff that comes with summer. Trying to turn a reamer is next on the list for the lathe. Like 1biggun, I've got a Yugo barrel assy and bolt/carrier ready for the build.
 
#161 ·
I started working on this again I got my 1 1/4" OD non concentric blank in the lathe and after a lot of shaking of the entire lathe I finally got it round but it was a job. I made a pilot and then used a dog to drive the barrel and just used the live center on the other end. Im pretty sure im with in .0005 on the run out but it really wont matter to much if its a little more. took about 3 hours to get it done. Im concerned about the amount of stress imparted from all the cutting and all that stuff wonder if the barrel is even straight any more. Im going to try to cut the chamber with a boring bar after I use a piolted reamer to cut the bullet leade/ free bore. whats the worst that can happen? This will be a while untill I can aford the reamer for the bullet leade.
 

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#163 ·
there is alot to be done yet before it comes out of the lathe. it takes a lot of time to cut it slowley enough to keep the temps down. I will be cutting of both ends before the final profile as i suspect the ends are likely a differant ID now from all the metal being cut away.
 
#178 ·
I'm looking at the specs for the .444 Marlin and .30-06 now. The Marlin base is .4706, the '06 .471. Marlin case 2.25, '06 2.494.

You could probably rent a .444 reamer for $35 and run it in an extra quarter inch, BUT it would need to have a square step at the front since you'd be headspacing there. I've seen drawings for similar (rimmed, straight case) chambers with both square and beveled shoulders, so you'd want to call or e-mail before renting a reamer.

If you shortened the case to fit in a .308 AK mag or 8mm Yugo mag, the build would basically be a barrel, bolt face mod if needed, and you could rock and roll...
 
#167 ·
Oddly enough, I was just thinking about this project. The ???? is basically a stretched .44 Auto Mag.

I've seen a couple of AR builds in .44 Auto Mag, which is the same basic thing as the ????. except shorter. Starline makes Auto Mag brass, or you can cut down .308 brass and ream the neck. Hornady .44 AMP die sets are about $70, but the RCBS neck reamer rig is steep.

The original .44 AMP literature claimed a 240 grain bullet at 1600 feet per second. The factory later backed off to 240 grains at 1250 fps, apparently due to the hot load battering the pistol. There were never any SAAMI specs for the .44 AMP, so reloaders generally kept loading them up until something broke.

Now, interestingly, the .30 Carbine is 1.65" long. So is the .50 Action Express. One of the "build an AK" booklets I found long ago had a .50 AE build using .30 Carbine magazines; the author said it worked fine.

If the mag feeds a .50AE it should feed a .44 AMP too. They're the same length. So is the AMT 10mm Magnum (NOT the 10mm Auto!). The .45 Winchester Magnum is a bit shorter, as is the 9mm Winchester Magnum. And there are a bunch of wildcats of Auto Mag length - .22, .25, and .30 Lomont, .300 Auto Mag, .41 Jurras Magnum, .475 Auto Mag, .40 KMP, and 8mm KMP (which uses unmodified 8mm Kurz brass). And, of course, the .357 Auto Mag...

.30 Carbine mags came in 10, 15, 20, and 30 round capacities.


I know, it's not directly related to the ????, but this was the best place I could think of...
 
#169 ·
I know we can get a reamer done for you. Straight walled case reamers aren't hard to make. Here's a couple reamers I made recently for a custom bushing die set. The chamber reamer will look about the same, only with a case mouth step and rifling leade. Included is a basic drawing of a reamer blank that I spoke about in the PM. The case body length area needs actually be longer than the case is, and the freebore area is going to work out to be around .150" long or so and .431" diameter. You can also make the pilot shorter if you want, but I would keep it at least .5" long.
 

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#170 ·
i need to decide if i want some more taper in the chamber or not. Its should be the same as a 444 marlin reamer except shorter an the area were the bullet seats ( neck ) would be straight. im using 444 dies so there is no reasint he chamber would be to much differant. I likely will need a special die also or at leat a way to or form the neck section seperatly down. Im still thinking a pas through a 444 marlin die would do an intial resising an then just size the very end with a 44 mag die possably honed out to compensate for the thicker neck. i cant recall what happpend to using a lee factry crimp die in 444 marlin witht he bottom shaved off? i need to go back an read.

the 410 has a barrel shroud that extends past the breach to allow the rounf to tip up high then be guided down . im not sure if this would beed ok or not. were trying to stick a bllet in a holt thats only about .010 bigger than the cases OD. it might be a bitch toi get it to feed ok.

a shroud could be duplicasted or even pressed on a non shrouded barrel or some thin or even added to the inside of the dust cover . bit the bolt has to clear it an the 410 bolt is a little differant from a standard ak bolt.
 
#171 ·
1biggun, case expansion isn't going to be as much of an issue as case neck thickness, both have easy fixes. The necks just need to be turned or reamed, once they are brought up to size. Just make a set of expanders like I did for the 357AR to bring 223 cases up to 357.

The two case expander stems jus fit inside of a lee powder through expander die and force the case open in two steps from .224" to .357". If you're going below the shoulder it should be muchc easier and you shold have fewer lost cases.
 

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#172 ·
I HAVE A EXPANDED ALREADY MADE AT ONE POINT AN IT WORKED OK. I NEEDED I PROFILE IT TO COMPENSATE FOR THE BRASS BEING THICKER AT THE BOTTOM. EVEN IF ITS NOT EXPANDED ALL THE WAY DOWN AN YOU GET A HOUR GLASS LOOK IT WILL STILL CHAMBER AN FIRE. THAT WILL BLOW IT STRAIGHT. ITS LIKELY YOU MAY NEED TO INSIDE REAMS TO REMOVE THE TAPER IN THE BRASS AT THE NECK . THE BULLET MAY SEAT OK OR NOT. ID LIKE THE BRASS AS THICK AS PPOSSIBLE TO GIVE MORE TO HEAD SPACE OFF OF. IM GOING TO GET BUNCH OF 308 ONCE FIRED BRASS (LOOKING FOR A GOOD DAY SOURCE BTW) TO USE IN MY 6MM BR PROJECT SO I SHOULD HAVE SOME TO PLAY WITH.
 
#174 ·
Moleman, I must have missed your 357AR thread. Where did you post it?
TRX, I just posted a little thread on it here. http://www.gunco.net/forums/f255/357ar-66500/index3.html The bulk of the design and resurch was done on weaponsguid in a thread called 357 maximun barrels, and another titled 357AR build. I just got home from getting 2 disks fused so when I have time I'll move some of it over here to go over the whys and hows a bit better. Alot of the isues I had I can see others having with their straight walled cartridges. I had hoped to take it deer hunting this year as I think it should make an excellent deer cartridge out to 250yds or so. I'll have to wait till next year for that though.
 
#175 ·
I just got home from getting 2 disks fused so when I have time I'll move some of it over here to go over the whys and hows a bit better. Alot of the isues I had I can see others having with their straight walled cartridges


I REALLY HOPE YOUR SURGERY HELPS YOU AN MAKES YOUR LIFE BETTER. MAN YOU GOT OUT OF THE HOSPITAL FAST. HOWS IT FEEL SO FAR? BESIDED I BET IT HURTS LKE HELL.

DONT SWEET MY ROUND IT WILL BE A WHILE BFORE I GET IT GOING. I HAVE A YOUTH GUN TO HELP FINSH AN TIME IS RUNNING OUT.

THE 444? RUNS THE SAME TAPER AS A 444 MARLIN (OR THATS HW i MADE MINE) MY MAIN CONCERN WOULD BE THAT THE BRASS IS UNIFORM IN THICKNESS WERE THE BULLET IS SEATED. I NEED TO SECTION A FEW DIFFRANT CASES AN SEE WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE AT AROUND THE 1.5" MARK.

IM SURE IF I RAN THEM INTO MODIFED 44MAG OR SIMULAR TTIM DIE OR A 444 MARLIN TRIM DIE POSSABKLY CROUND DOWN OR A HOME MADE TRIM DIE MADE FOR A SIZING REAMER THEY COUD EASLY BE INSIDE REAMED STRAIGHT . OR i COULD LIKELY JUST CHUCK THEM UP IM MY CASE TRIMMER AN AN INSIDE REAM THEM STRAIGHT.


MIGHT EVEN BE ABLE TO SET IT UP SO THERE IS A SHELF TO SEAT THE BULLET ON SO IT CANT BE FORCED BACK UNDER RECOIL OR FEEDING ??????

AKS CAN BE REALLY AHRD ON BULLET TIPS DURING FEEDING.

I WONT BE HAPPY IF THE ROUND CANT DO A 1" GROUP AT 75 YARDS IN A GOOD BARREL. I HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE BARREL I MADE FORM A UNTURNED BLANK THAT HAD A VERY OUT OF CENTER BORE WILL SHOOT. i TOOK A LOT OF METAL OFF OF IT AN I HAVE NO IDEA HOW UNIFORM THE BORE STILL IS OR HOW MUCH STRESS THERE IS IN IT . IF I WERE TO DO IT OVER AGAIN ID BUY A BETTER BLANK OR STARTING POINT.
 
#176 · (Edited)
1biggun, Not my first back surgery, but this one was quiten a bit more involved. I was back in a treestand after six weeks last time, this time tehy're telling me I'll be able to start pt after 6 weeks. The surgery took 4.5hrs and they had 2-2.5 planned for it. Hopefully they got it right this time. I was supposed to come home tues, but they wouldn't let me go till yesterday. Anyway, it'll be a while for I'm able to make ot back out to the shop or type a completescentence without totally butchering it.

The 444 marlin cases should work nicly and if not a custom die isn't real hard to make either. The case taper can be addressed with reaming or turning and isn't hard. Here's a trial case I made without thinning the neck. You can see it has a bulge at the bullet base. Thats just extra material that can be removed to end up with a nice tapered case. In the second pic I push a case onto the arbor once its centered in trhe 4-jaw and turn the neck to the desired diameter, light poloish and you're done. The same could be done with reaming.



EDIT: the shape of the arbor is important. In the pic it is bullet sized, so I just turn the necks to .380" (IIRC) to just below where the bullet base would be. I have scratched a line on the mandrel to know how far to push the brass onto it and tapered the front of it. I check up the mandrel in the 4-jay and indicate on it till it tuns true as beast as I can measure at .0005". To remove the bump in the shoulder from the 223 cases I'm using I run the roller tool from the bullets base and over the bump towards the case mouth, but not over the case mouth as it will flair it out. Usually when you get close to the case mouth the case will stop spinning on the arbor as it has enlagarged slightly in diameter, the tool post can be backed off and the case can be pulled off easily. Then resize it and back on the mandrel with a cutting bit in the tool post. The arbor is .357" diameter and slightly longer than bullet diameter so I push the cases on evenly to the scratch mark (ring) I just trun the case from the the case mouth to the bullet base. Once the cutter is over the tapered tip of the mandrel it will wopen up the case neck slightly and start making a lighter cut. remove the cutter quickly or you'll get chatter like cuts fromt he case wobbeling around on there. I run a couple passes over them with a brown scotch pad to polish the slightly, resuze, final trim and preload away! Hope that helps out with a couple of the questions.
 

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#181 ·
If it's going to be rimless with no shoulder you have to headspace on the case mouth and the rimmed reamers cut a taper large enough you have to go in deeper to get the diameter back so you can cut the case mouth step. It also can throw off the taper of you chamber slightly. Much easier to make a reamer. The reamers not hard to make, just tedious. I bought an indexer between back surgeries (second one wasn't planned) so once I'm moving around good again it should be even easier.
 

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#182 ·
nice score on the indexer.

I have talked to guys who have made the 444 marlin rimless they used a standard 444 marlin reamer an then used a chucking reamer to remove the taper to work as a stop. most reamers ahve extra neck length to you will have to runthe reamer short or make our brass longer.

the 444???? will need a special reamer or need to be cut with a boring bar.

I think you can use 444 marlin dies however. i have made brass for it. you will need to likely inside ream it. it would be best to expand it straight with a arbor an then sixe it in the dies an then ream the neck area to a correct id.

when this thread was started there were no leverlution bullets avalaible so you were stuck with pistol bullets. The bullet length dictates the case length if you want to get as much capacity as possable. today thre are leverltution bullets avaliable IMIO they wlould be the best for feeding with there plastic tip as well as for veleocity etc.

If i were to retake up work on this project I would start witht he heavest 44 leverlution bullet an work back ward setting case length the allow the bullet to be seated at proper depth at a near mag length OAL loaded length. id make the reamer form the loaded round.

I have been thinking about this round a little more the last few months.Its occured to me that more caxe taper would benifit the it creatly for feeding an also to make it work in a some sort of standard round. I have been working on a 6.5x55 swede an it has a bigger case head. If 6.5 swede brass were used ( yea the cost goes up to make it) then you could have more taper in the round. american swede brass is a little undersized . european brass is closer to the claimed .080 case head it should have. At any rate it would give you a round with more taper. food for thought.
 
#183 ·
Stealth ammunition

The ".416 Stealth." It's a Whisper type cartridge, made by sawing off a .308 case and using a .416 bullet. Overall length is same as a .223.

The available bullet selections are considerably different between the .429" and .416" sizes; most .429 bullets are basically .44 Magnum pistol bullets, which annoys the .444 Marlin guys. At subsonic velocities like the .416's designer talks about, a pistol bullet would seem to be a more appropriate choice for something intended to kill something besides paper; .416 bullets are usually heavy-wall stuff, designed to expand deep inside big game at 2000-2500fps.

Still, an interesting design...
 
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