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Thread: BUILDING A NEW VARMIT AK.

  1. #11
    Gunco Maniac sjohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
    I've rechambered 30-30 for 30-30 ackley and the results are amazing. i'm sure you can obtain good results from the x39, but i believe you have to start with the big problems (flex=slop).

    one thing i have never seen is anyone post accuracy results from their x39 from a bolt rifle.
    BigAl, the link (the "7" posted by 1biggun) is the reported results of just such a bolt action. If true, quite impressive.
    From that link:
    We chambered a Krieger stainless fluted barrel, with a 10" twist, for this cartridge. It was finished at 25.5 inches, and installed in a Remington 700 action. A Leupold 6.5-20 scope was installed in Leupold rings and bases.
    Here's the link again: 7

  2. #12
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    BigAl I honestly would have agreed with you on the milled reciver 3 years ago. I built that varmit 223 on a dare an a bet with spare parts. I would have been thrilled with A one inch group. to get sub 1/2" groups as easy as I did still seems to good to be true.
    the truth is IMOA that the reciver flex is not as much of a issue as with a bolt action due to the scope being on the barrel and not on the reciver. all the sheet metal reciver does is hold the trigger grop and the carrer in place. I have read posts on other boards were guys claim there milled reciver guns are not as accurate as stamped. It is possable that a stamped reciver may dampen barrel harmonics or perhaps they cool better or maybe it dampens the trigger group vibration .
    Harmonics and the bolt being sqare to the barrel, bolt flex, an firing pin weights, and lock time, barrel tension all come into play but after shooting my varmit build over 1500 rounds at varmits I really am certain that almost any calibure on a stamped reciver can be made to shoot sub 1" moa with a good barrel, chamberd correctly and really good ammo. I will likely find that my new varmit II version may be only slightly more accurate than version I or not at all. I feel at some point ,likely at the sub .5" group range there is going to be a wall that the AK system will not allow you to do any better. it will be a combination of bolt flex, lock time and the swing of a heavy hammer into a not perfectly centerd firing pin. or the .080 or larger gas port causing the barrel to warp at a certain temp or possably the barrel pin causing tension on the top half of the barrel only, or the 23mm limit on barrel OD, but something will prevent it from going super accurate (1/4" groups). I intend to play around with these CHEAP guns and see what the limit is.
    As far as the 7.62x39 goes the round is limited by its case capacity for getting much in the way of velocity out of it but bolt guns can shoot very very accurate with it. I got the reamers I got cheap takeoff barrels so what the hell, build it throw in some good ammo and see what it does. It will be a nice light hunting capiable pretty stainless barrel shooter. Like I said I have shot several 1" groups with a 12.5" pistol in 7.62x39 so I know the potential is there.
    If anyone want to donate a .30 cal match grade barrel blank or a milled reciver to the cause i will be happy to put it to the test. LOL

  3. #13
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    I don't think anyone has actually taken the time and effort to accurize (is that a word?) a 7.62x39 round. I was really talking about the AK action itself, and a PPC round on an AK action would perhaps be the best all-around tack driver for the AK platform IMO.
    I couldnt agree more. feeding may be a issue as the case is pretty straight, but a 6mm ppc round in a good barrel would quickly tell what the reciver/acton is capiable of. I would love to pull a barrel offf a known bench rest gun and stick it on a AK reciver and shoot the same ammo and see how good it can do. 6.5 grendal is starting to see some real promise as well. PPC rounds run some pretty high pressures so they would likely cause simular bolt thrust as a 7.62x51 nato round.
    I have come close so many times to pulling the trigger on a 6mm ppc barrel or reamers its not funny, I want a little more speed than the 6mm ppc provides and ammo is way to pricey for varmit hunting. but A accurate gun is always interesting. probaly why I dont shoot my MI carbine much.
    I know I asked before but is there any stamped AK,s with threaded barrel/trunions????
    I would like to maybe do away with the barrel pin. possably could take a threaded reciver stub and use it.

  4. #14
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
    I know I asked before but is there any stamped AK,s with threaded barrel/trunions????
    I would like to maybe do away with the barrel pin. possably could take a threaded reciver stub and use it.
    To the best of my knowledge, no. Every threaded barrel kit I know of went to a milled receiver.

    You could always use a threaded bushing on for example a Romy trunion, and thread the barrel down to the Chinese pattern of 19mm and run with it. The barrel pin may have to be oversized to get enough bite on the barrel, but probably not.

    I'm not sure why you would want to move away from the press fit? There is not a chance that headspace will creep on either one, so long as they are properly built. I could see a poorly drilled barrel pin hole causing issues if it was loose, but that would be the only reason for concern.

  5. #15
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why you would want to move away from the press fit? There is not a chance that headspace will creep on either one, so long as they are properly built. I could see a poorly drilled barrel pin hole causing issues if it was loose, but that would be the only reason for concern.
    It not the head space im worried about. its the tension and stresss that pressing a barrel in and then drilling a hole through the top half of the barrel then driving a pin a across it. I feel that this may cause stress on the barrel and cause it to walk/warp as it heats up. not to mention that the barrel is possably loaded unevenly as it is fired pressure is exerted against the top half of the barrel.
    I relize that this may have absolutly no affect on accuracy in the real world, but many of the top bolt action builders dont even use tight threads or tourque the barrel down . they use a locktite type stuff to keep the barrel in place once it is threaded in. this is done to reduce barrel tension and stress.
    A sleave is not a option as I dont want to reduce barrel OD if anything Id like to increase it.

  6. #16
    Gunco Veteran SA58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcpookie View Post
    I don't think anyone has actually taken the time and effort to accurize (is that a word?) a 7.62x39 round....
    +1
    Good ammunition is key for accuracy in any platform.

    I was getting these 5 shot groups with my M95 and good ammo @ 100yd's.


    I'm confident I can tighten those groups up substantially. At the time I was trying to dial in my scope using 62gr Wolf fmj. It patterned like a shotgun.


    ...where's the pattern? 1-7 twist should like heavier rounds, so I think the ammo is crap. Proper/good ammunition is key. A decent trigger helps too.

    If somebody made up some 7.62x39 rounds as good as they could be, you'd probably get groups as good if not better than any other semi-auto rifle in that caliber with an AK. IMO, the blanket statement that 'AK's are inaccurate' is a myth.
    ...I'm not tense! Just terribly, terribly alert.

  7. #17
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    I have a 1-9 twist now it shoots wolf 223 at about a 1.5 or worse group.

    as I have said in past posts with reguard to 7.62x39 ammo is a big deal. the other problem its the loose chamber/neck and long free bore. I cant get a bullet any were near the rifeling if loaded to fit in the mag. I load it as long as it can be and still fit the mag. all my 7.62x39 AK,s shoot 1.5" or better 5 shoot groups at 100 several will do under a inch if I do my part. I am using winchester brass cci nato primers. and imr 4227 powder hornady 125 gr soft points. this is a load right out of the lyman book. the guns all have trigger work and optics. I have some .310 plastic tiped Vmax bullets I am going to try they shoud be pretty good. The factory chamber is not really good for accuracy it is designed for reliability with steel casesd ammo. If one were to fire form brass and seat the bullets out accuracy would likely be much better but then the gun would not feed and would surely jam. the other thing is you are dealing with a pencil thin barrel with 4 or more things pinned to it and a loose fitting muzzel device combined with pressure being applied by the gas tube and a large gas port as well. Its not a real pretty picture. I honestly think my 12.5" pistol possably shoots better than my 16" guns because there is less barrel to whip and move around, it is more ridgid and the shorter gas tube possably imparts less force on the barrel closer to the breach. My AMD 65 pistol is the most accurate 7.62x39 I have, consistant 1" groups, trigger work 3x9 scope of a very steady rest.

    looking at the targets above I have to ask how often are you cleaning your barrel?? I start to loose accuracy after about 30-40 rounds in 223. you have over 45 rounds in that one target. wolf ammo burns pretty dirty. also you stated you have a 1-7 twist that will really spin a light bullet and any imperfections will be magnifed. a 1-7 with really good light bullets will still shoot pretty good as the more concentric bullet will not be affected as much.

  8. #18
    Gunco Veteran SA58's Avatar
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    I started out shooting the Wolf... ran a bunch through it (what you see on the target and then some) with no cleaning. Frustrated, not knowing if it was the rifle, mount or scope... I put up a fresh target and switched up the ammo (again, didn't clean anything). True, it's a far lighter bullet... but the results speak for itself. Your right, with as tight a twist as 1-7 the gr of the Wolf shouldn't be the issue. Either my rifle just didn't like it, or the ammo is just that bad and the Winchester that good.

    If the lighter bullet magnifies imperfections then my groups should really improve with some heavier gr bullet, quality ammo. I've actually been looking for some off the shelf stuff just to try whenever I go to Cabelas or Gander Mt... but most of what they have isn't over 55gr.

    The barrel on the 95 is actually pretty beefy, the low recoil impulse from the adjustable gas setting probably helps too.
    ...I'm not tense! Just terribly, terribly alert.

  9. #19
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    are you sure you have a 1-7 twist?? A 1-7 twist is more for a 69gr and up bullet. the 1-7 twist in 223 came about for guys wanting to use heavy low drag bullets in 1000 meter and other long range shooting compitetion. fast twist barrels are said to have a shorter life as well.
    A 1-7 twist will likely require more frequent cleaning intervals( just guessing here). I think black hills factory loads heavy bullets in match 223. if I had a 1-7 twist Id be trying the 77 grain match kings loaded as far out as the rifeling or the mag will allow.
    I am only guessing here but the por quality wolf bullets are being spun to fast due to the fast twist the out of roundnes is likely hindering accuracy. a better quality 55 gr bullet will likely work out better. I really like the nosler balistic tip bullets 50 grain in my gun out to 400 yards.

  10. #20
    Gunco Veteran SA58's Avatar
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    Yep, positive. It's stamped on the barrel. '5.56 1/7'. Just Yugoslavian military, chrome lined M95 (M90) I built as a fixed stock. Seems to like that CXP1 varmint with the nosler bt rounds as well.

    ...I'm not tense! Just terribly, terribly alert.

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