Gunco Forums banner

I have obtained a 9x39 SP5 round

29K views 161 replies 21 participants last post by  allesennogwat 
#1 ·
After 5 years of searching, a friend pulled through! I have an SP5 (ball) cartridge and as a bonus what I am told is a VSS Vintorez magazine! :thumbup1:

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/Groza/9x39/9x39_caliber.htm

No more guess work. I am measuring the cartridge so I can make a diagram, then I'll make a reamer. I may actually submit this to a reamer mfr just so they have it on their list. Funds are kind of tight right now so that will be later down the road.

More pics to follow.



 
See less See more
1
#88 ·
I'm looking at a 5.56 mag body right now for a single-stack mag. It will almost certainly require a new follower but I haven't made any dummy rounds yet. Dummy rounds are pending additional samples to confirm my measurements are accurate. Like I've said, I don't want to base the reamer off of ONE case only. If and when I get some unfired rounds I'll have the ability to confirm chambering with the real deal. So that's really the first domino to all of this.
 
#89 ·
Note the Russian 7.62x39 chamber has a half degree (30 minutes) more angle than the cartridge and the US 7.62x39 chamber is a half degree (30 minutes) less angle than the cartridge. The cartridges will interchange between the two. Rarely do the chamber and cartridge angle match exactly but I don't think it would be a problem if it did. The Chinese 7.62x39 cartridge has a Russian shoulder angle but the Chinese 7.62x39 chamber has a rounded shoulder similar to a Weatherby cartridge. This is for better or easier chrome plating. It doesn't have to match exactly for shape and basing a chamber reamer on a cartridge may not give the same results as a factory chamber. As long as it functions and headspaces alright it should be okay.
 
#90 ·
I cant read any thing on the last page here ofthis discussion this is getting old.

Gunco.net
Forum Message
Welcome to Gunco.net 1biggun!
You last visited: 03-14-2009 at 08:00 PM
Private Messages: Unread 1, Total 189.
Your PM box is 95% full.


Search Forums


Show Threads Show Posts
Advanced Search

Quick Links
Today's Posts
Mark Forums Read
Open Buddy List
User Control Panel
Edit Signature
Edit Profile
Edit Options
Miscellaneous
Private Messages
Subscribed Threads
My Profile

Go to Page...


Forum : Mark all forums read | Get today`s posts | Get new posts

Forum Message
Sorry. The administrator has banned your IP address. To contact the administrator click here

Forum Jump
User Control Panel Private Messages Subscriptions Who's Online Search Forums Forums Home GENERAL Discussion Lobby General Discussion Lobby News, Updates and Announcements Product and Company Reviews New Member Introductions Jokes and Humor Feedback and tech support Polls Terms of Use and User Agreement General Firearms Lobby General Firearms Discussion AK-47 Discussion Forum AR15 Discussion Forum Fal Discussion Forum Battle rifles NFA Competitive shooting Firearm Laws and Regulations Build it Yourself Forum AK BIY forum Your Completed AK Projects AR-15 BIY Forum Belt Fed BIY Forum FAL BIY Forum Build it Yourself Forum for all other stuff The Machine Shop Converting AK's to other calibers Sub-gun Build it forum The Tool Shed Gunsmithing Tools and Hardware CNC Gunsmithing AR-15 Tooling Rifle and Stock Finishing Legal Issues Discussion Saiga Forum Saiga rifle general discussion Siaga shotgun general discussion Saiga rifle conversion Saiga shotgun conversion Saiga pictures Optics Magazines Saiga accessories Saiga Vendors DPH Arms +-+-+ CLASSIFIEDS +-+-+ Classifieds Classifieds Discussion Forum Gunco Sponsors and Vendors Classified area User trader ratings Firearm Library Rifles Library AK-47 Library AR-15 Library Handgun Library Belt Fed Library General Rifle Library Library for all other firearm types Ammo Box Reloading Ammunition discussion News Feeds NSSF Feeds JPFO Feeds NRA Feeds C&R Discussion Forum The C&R Information Board C&R Weapons Discussion The Great Outdoors Hunting Fishing, Camping and Hiking Survival/Preparedness Forum
 
#91 ·
I think the drawings I found have measurements that made by hand. I think this info here is accurate.

7.62x39 bullet diameter in drawing = 7.86 mm

7.62x39 spec'd bullet diameter = 7.92 mm

9x39 bullet diameter in drawing = 9.20 mm

9x39 spec'd bullet diameter = 9.27 mm (same as 9x18)

9x39 barrel lands = 9.00 mm - grooves = 9.25 mm - 1 turn in 240 mm (6 groove?)

9x18 barrel lands = 9.00 mm - grooves = 9.27 mm - 1 turn in 240 mm - 4 groove

Should be easiest to stay with .358" rifle bullets and barrel which might be slightly smaller in diameter.

.358" bullets = 9.12 mm

.358" barrel - lands = 8.86 mm - grooves = 9.07 mm = 1 turn in 406.40 mm - 6 groove

Case neck diameter may somewhere around 9.52 mm to 9.86 mm.
 
#93 ·
9mm SP-5 Cartridge (Designation 7N8)

The cartridge is designed for selected engagement of manpower at ranges up to 400 meters.

It is fired from the 6P29 sniper rifle. The bullet is not painted.

Caliber, mm: 9x39 mm

Weight, grams:

cartridge 23 grams

bullet 16 grams

Cartridge length, mm: 55 mm to 56 mm

Muzzle velocity, m/s: 285 - 295 m/s

Maximum average chamber pressure, MPa: 285 MPa

Accuracy at 100 meters: 8 cm maximum

SSh-1 army helmet penetration range, meters: 400 meters

Case material: steel



9mm SP-6 Cartridge (Designation 7N9)

This cartridge is designed for selective flak vest-clad manpower at ranges up to 400 meters.

It is fired from the 6P30 and 9A91 assault rifles, the SR-3 small-size assault rifle and the 6P29 sniper rifle.

The bullet point is painted black.

Caliber, mm: 9x39 mm

Weight, grams:

cartridge 23 grams

bullet 16 grams

Cartridge length, mm: 55 mm to 56 mm

Muzzle velocity, m/s: 285 m/s to 295 m/s

Maximum average chamber pressure, MPa: 285 MPa

Accuracy at 100 meters, cm: 3.5 cm maximum

Penetration range, meters:

sheet steel, 4 mm thick: 400 meters

flak vest, type 6B2 (BZh-81): 400 meters

Case material: steel
 
#97 · (Edited)
Nuthin' but good stuff to say about those games. Modded them for a while even. I gotta get the new one, I hear it came out a few days ago. Already played the russian version, but now I'm gonna give the developers some money for the english one so they'll make moar sequels.

ETA: just got the newest one, it's pretty cool though they didn't add any stash boxes in from the russ version. Walkie walkie.
 
#98 ·
Cool pics. My guess is that those blue tips are probably dummy rounds for training etc.

I too am a Stalker fan. Not quite the game I was expecting but still fun anyway. Just heard about the 3rd one and didn't even realize I missed the 2nd one last year! Man I've been too busy :( Speaking of which at the rate I'm going I'll probably going to order up a reamer when tax money arrives.
 
#99 ·
The second one is great, the third one only sucks IMO because there are almost no stash boxes to drop your stuff off at. I had to mod the second one to be harder, but if you found the first too hard then clear sky will be better for you.
Whoops, a bit off topic... Back on topic, the stripper clips are new, Never seen them, they look like they hook onto the mag latch instead of a separate loader. might be a good design for 7.62x39 stripper clip guide, as current guides are very bulky, and the mags don't have the proper grooves for an AR style loader like the 74 uses.
 
#100 ·
Shadow of Chernobyl isn't hard enough. Play the NEWSA+Simbion mod if you want hard. Makes me sweat bullets and spanks me hard!

The game is encouraging me to start planning and scrounging to build a Vintorez pseudo-clone. It would be awesome to score or load tracers just to watch what must be a beautiful parabolic arc when firing them.
 
#101 ·
Shadow of Chernobyl isn't hard enough. Play the NEWSA+Simbion mod if you want hard. Makes me sweat bullets and spanks me hard!
:notworthy I tweaked the files on CS to make the enemies shoot at you from 20 or so feet inside the max vision distance, and the game engine goes with a "hit probability" system, so I set it so rookies were at 80% and it went up from there to 100 with the most experienced enemies. The part where you run from the swamps to the cordon has to be bypassed and you gotta sneak past the stalkers on the bridge. Made it more sneaky rather than "run like hell while hitting quick-medkit as fast as you can". Musta had 200 hours on that game...
 
#102 ·
Well the tax return arrived - yippee! :D

Now to order dies, reamers, etc.

Dies

RCBS, Hornady, CH4D... I know these guys do custom dies. Who else should I contact?

When I queried RCBS on this the "wildcat guy" was kind of snotty about it and didn't seem as interested in helping with some simple questions, so I'm not convinced they'll be the best vendor. Kind of turned me off to RCBS but I'm willing to give them a go. Obviously the 7.62x39 shell holders will work.


Reamer

I'm thinking of getting the reamer from Clymer as I've ordered from them before and had good luck with their product. There's what 5 or 6 of us that will actually us the reamer, correct? We could pass that around and it should be good for at least that many barrels. Probably not too many more! Does anyone know if Pacific does custom reamer orders? Other reamer makers I should contact?

Headspace Gauges

I'll need to talk this over with the reamer people. I believe a no-go gauge is the absolute minimum. Due to the action of the AK it is fairly simple to set headspace correctly... going on the premise that "so long as it doesn't close on a no-go gauge" it will be OK without a "go" gauge.


I bought a 9.3mm barrel blank from Midway, pretty sure it was a Douglas barrel. Need to profile it on my mini-lathe which will be an all-weekend ordeal! :)


Since everything else is based on 7.62x39 parts it will require only a new magazine. I'm going to postpone finding that perfect magazine to adapt until after I can get some dummy rounds made up. I am fairly certain a .223 AK mag or AK-74 mag will work as-is but that remains to be seen... we have quite a few choices as far as .308 AK mags, etc. so I simply need to get some dummy rounds made up on the dies and work from there.
 
#103 ·
I hesitate to say this but we could probably convert 7.62x39 dies by annealing them to be soft, then run the reamer into them to open up the dies. Order a replacement 9.3mm expander ball and you're all set. This would be a good, economical alternative to a full-out set of dies that may make this more affordable for some people out there.

The seating dies should be about the same thing - use a 9.3mm die that's cut down short and cleaned up on the bottom to work properly in the press. Ditto for the crimp die if you decide to use one, which I think would be a good thing.

I don't think an expander die will be necessary since I'm looking at the different 9.3mm bullets and they are all jacketed. However of course a 9.3mm expander would be necessary for all-lead bullets if you were so inclined to go that direction.

My point in this post is that there may be affordable alternatives in case someone doesn't want to shell out the cost of a complete die set and doesn't mind the extra work to "convert" a donor die set. Annealing will be the tough part (get it, ha ha) IMO but I've been told that you could anneal a die by putting it in the bottom of a fireplace all night... is that true?
 
#104 ·
Theoretically your die reamer should be .004-.008" smaller then your chambering reamer, to provide for .003-.006" chamber clearance plus brass springback when sizing.

If you're having the chambering reamer made simply as a necked-up x39, I don't see anything wrong with your idea of annealing an x39 die and opening it up. Don't forget to put a nice radius at the neck before re-heat-treating. It wouldn't hurt it to run a few cases through for op check before heat treating.


Dave Kiff at Pacific made my Beo...er, 12.7 Schuler reamer. He was responsive via email. I told him it would headpace on the case mouth, that it needed enough clearance to reliably cycle in a semiauto, that I'd be using the same bullets as a .500 Smith, and let him pick the leade geometry, clearance, etc. I figured he could guess a lot better than I could.

He said it would take 4 to 6 weeks to make the reamer; UPS dropped it off at my door in less than two. Danged custom shops, they just can't meet their schedules...
 
#106 ·
If you're having the chambering reamer made simply as a necked-up x39,

It wouldn't hurt it to run a few cases through for op check before heat treating.
The 9x39 has a straighter profile, there is a 9x39 dummy in this thread, or another that was made from a 7.62x39 case that the shoulder isn't bigger and there is almost no shoulder there.

Running a few cases through would be a pretty good idea, so long as they are really clean and no dings. It would smooth the die out a bit, sorta "smooshing" any machining marks down.

Pookie, if you end up doing an AK9/OTs11 "Tiss" copy then you could go with a yugo grenade gas block, cut away most of the GL sight and carve out the GL position to restrict the gas rather than cutting it off. Then you could increase the utility of the rifle with supersonic loadings without having the rifle cycle too hard from the drastic difference in pressures.
 
#105 ·
Dave Kiff at Pacific made my Beo...er, 12.7 Schuler reamer. He was responsive via email.
i second going with pacific his stuff is top notch and his customer service is very good i have orderd from him in the pas and will continue to do so. I contacted Clymer about a 7.62x39 and IMOO they were Dicks to me. said they didnt have time to deal with it when they were to busy making remaers for normal caliburs. I seriously will never buy from them again. they suck since selling out.

also if your keeping the original taper why not just use a 7.62x39 with a larger pilot and then use a neck and throat reamer in in 9mm to finish it????? I have a x39 remers but there fixed pilot but I might begetting them converted when i have them recut to better suit a 308 bore. If that will work I could chamber a barrel for you and you could finish t with a N&T reamer. A N&T reamer can be rented as can a x39 reamer BTW.

Does redding make dies in 7.62x39 with a bushing in them to be able to set the neck tension?? If so then you possably could just change the bushing and expandr out to a 9mm one. I know a guy that uses redding 22-250 dies and a differant busshing for a 20-250. I would not even worry about a head space Guage since you are making the ammo on your own dies all the ammo should be of the same spec. a dummy reound made up with a shim would be all that is nessacary and likey more accurate.

On the dies if the redding set up wont work Id contact lee there cheaper and will do custom runs.

I have been thinking about your project for a while if you cant tell :)

I was tempted the other day to try to ream /chamber a drilled out junk Yugo barrel with a x39 reamer and fire form some brass in it and see what it would look like.
 
#107 ·
i second going with pacific his stuff is top notch and his customer service is very good i have orderd from him in the pas and will continue to do so. I contacted Clymer about a 7.62x39 and IMOO they were Dicks to me. said they didnt have time to deal with it when they were to busy making remaers for normal caliburs. I seriously will never buy from them again. they suck since selling out.

also if your keeping the original taper why not just use a 7.62x39 with a larger pilot and then use a neck and throat reamer in in 9mm to finish it????? I have a x39 remers but there fixed pilot but I might begetting them converted when i have them recut to better suit a 308 bore. If that will work I could chamber a barrel for you and you could finish t with a N&T reamer. A N&T reamer can be rented as can a x39 reamer BTW.

Does redding make dies in 7.62x39 with a bushing in them to be able to set the neck tension?? If so then you possably could just change the bushing and expandr out to a 9mm one. I know a guy that uses redding 22-250 dies and a differant busshing for a 20-250. I would not even worry about a head space Guage since you are making the ammo on your own dies all the ammo should be of the same spec. a dummy reound made up with a shim would be all that is nessacary and likey more accurate.

On the dies if the redding set up wont work Id contact lee there cheaper and will do custom runs.

I have been thinking about your project for a while if you cant tell :)

I was tempted the other day to try to ream /chamber a drilled out junk Yugo barrel with a x39 reamer and fire form some brass in it and see what it would look like.
* not the same taper so you definitely can't just size it up. Same base, however.

Interesting on Clymer - didn't realize they changed management - when did you deal with them?
 
#108 ·
You could easily put several thousand cases through an annealed die - as long as it wasn't dead soft. Many a hobbyist has made their own die using 7/8 studs (gotta anneal to ream) and never hardened the die.

Clean brass will never wear a steel die, brass is too soft to do so. Dirt will damage a non-hardened die, but brass won't. And if you aren't cleaning your brass before loading, why not?
 
#109 ·
its my under standing that clymer sold out years back. I delt with them last summer when I was shopping for a x25 reamer. they were IMOO rude and acted like they didnt need me to stay in bussiness. I have persionaly talked to Dave at pacific and his willing to help out with suggestions and advice. Id get a pioleted reamer as barrels can vary wildly.


with he taper being differant then your going to need a sizing die reamer and a finish chamber reamer. you can likely use the sizing die reamer as a rougher BTW.

as far as hardening the dies if the brass dont wear out the barrel it wont wear out the soft Die. You dont really need to buy a truck stud if you have a lathe and can thread just get some 7/8" rod and thread it and then you dont even have to aneal it. if you wanted to get chrome molly then I bet a shot out 22 barrel would be a good donner for steel.

I wonder how a grendel case would be with the neck open up to 9mm??? its got a straighter taper the correct rim and the length is correct. you could use a 6.5 reamer to do the chamber and then neck and throat it to 9mm. I think grendal dies can be had with removable neck bushings. Id be willing to bet that a 9mmx39 could be made pretty cheap going that route. green doll /grendel reamers can be rented I used one on barrel for a member. I relize it would not be a true russian 9x39 but you cant buy ammo any way. It likely would give a little more case capacity and possably be a better round. If you rented a reamer and a 9mm pilot and N&T reamer and were able to use grendel dies witha differant bushing then the whole project could likely be done under $125. If it is doable you could just buy a greendoll reamer and the other stuff as well off the shelf and have it for other builds. Im going use my 6mm/284 like this to do a 6.5/284 and maybe even a 30/284 if you have 9mm luger or other pistol reamer you likely could use it for the necking and throating as well (possably)
 
#112 ·
Grendel and PPC brass would work since it uses the same base as 7.62x39. Other similar-sized brass should be able to resize to fit. I've collected over 1k of x39 brass so I'm all set :)

I'm not going to ream my own dies - I don't believe my mini-lathe is up to the task and I really don't want to risk damaging the reamer or the dies. My luck I'd end up reaming the die out of round and wonder why all my case necks aren't concentric.


I'll make some calls later this week to get some quotes.
 
#113 ·
Spent cartridge off to Pacific! "Please allow 1-4 weeks for processing" :)

He recommended Hornady dies. I need to call them to find out how much but according to their 2010 catalog their prices are competitive with other custom die makers.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top