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I have obtained a 9x39 SP5 round

28K views 161 replies 21 participants last post by  allesennogwat 
#1 ·
After 5 years of searching, a friend pulled through! I have an SP5 (ball) cartridge and as a bonus what I am told is a VSS Vintorez magazine! :thumbup1:

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/Groza/9x39/9x39_caliber.htm

No more guess work. I am measuring the cartridge so I can make a diagram, then I'll make a reamer. I may actually submit this to a reamer mfr just so they have it on their list. Funds are kind of tight right now so that will be later down the road.

More pics to follow.



 
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#2 ·
WOW. You can likely have a reamer and dies made from it. It would be better if it was unfired at then it could be copied exactly. I wonder how much it is expanded over a unfired round
250 grain bullet that is a hunk of metal. the mag is a total score. how does it differ from a 7.62 mag?
it appears that the case taper is straighter than a 7.62 round is this correct? or is it the same?
 
#4 ·
The bullet was dug out of the embankement so you can see the rifling around it. Still, it retained its basic shape and weight as you can see. That agrees with all of the subsonic performance data I've seen, that you simply can't get expansion in a subsonic load.

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/Groza/9x39/100_0697.JPG

Here it is compared to a .45 ACP round, and the mag:

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/Groza/9x39/100_0698.JPG


The magazine is closer to a Saiga-12 magazine than anything else. Like a slick S-12 mag.

Feed lips are much thicker than the Bulgarian waffle mags I have.

The ribs are nice - seems like they did it for a grip surface, similar to the waffles' design.

The floorplate is synthetic, very much like a Galil or a Saiga-12 magazine.

Magazine spring looks just like an AK spring but shorter. Ditto for the follower.
 
#5 ·
HC I think you would likely get expansion out of a cast bullet or a lightly jackted hollow point. 9mm pistol loads expand at 900 fps. that bullet pictured likley would not unless it hit some thing solid like rocks or metal. but I think there is hope with a diffferant bullet design.
I have been working with some subsonic 7.62 loads and 180 Grain will not allow enough pressue build up to cycle the action and stay subsoinc likley will have to go to 200 0r 220 bullets. im guessing the 9mm bore would likely be pretty close to the same results with the same case capacity.
how much is the case mouth expanded over the original 9mm bullet OD. I am getting almost .007 expansion or .317 ID on a fired 7.62 round witch means on a .310 bullet the chamber is at least .007 and likely more as the case will shrink back some.
that means that your case may be streched .005 -.008 larger than when it was unfired, if the 9x39 has the same aproximent chamber clearances.
 
#6 ·
Remember that chamber casting I made for the 7.62x39? The tolerances there are what I'll use for this one. I think it was .004" tolerance, except at the neck.

I'm basing my "subsonic doesn't expand" notion on the 300 Whisper (aka 300-221) sites.

The only bullets originally made are the FMJ (apparently with hollow tip) called the SP-5, and the SP-6 which is a steel core penetrator with an exposed tip. The SP-6 is a result of the original penetrator, the PAB-9, causing excessive barrel wear. The difference is that the PAB penetrator was the complete bullet, with a copper jacket. The SP-6 is a steel core, surrounded by lead, in the copper jacket.

Modern Firearms - Ammunition - Special purpose cartridges of USSR and Russia


To start with, I intend to use the Nosler .366" 250 grain ballistic tips. That's the same weight but in a more conventional bullet. There are also some solids in that profile.

I know the boat tail on a bullet this size doesn't do anything for aerodynamics - the flat base performs the same. Boat tails are really better for faster rounds. However, I suspect the Russians designed the bullet WITH so that it would be more stable. The bullet is supposed to be a hollow tip, which makes this a HUGE 5.45 round in that it should have a tendency to yaw. That would mean a huge wound cavity potential!

The fact that I now have a bullet swaging press (long story) makes bullet design something I can toy with. I should be able to get the hollow tip design to work with a long enough copper tube by swaging the base, and then the tip. Working on the size of the lead core will be interesting, but it looks like, just with the .300-221 (Whisper) there isn't much powder behind it! :)


Edit to add -

I was made aware that Andrei's Russian website has SP-5 and SP-6 rounds available for sale as souveniers (keychain etc with a hole drilled in them), however due to the trouble he had with the authorities, he can no longer sell to the US. SO - if you're travelling to Russia any time soon, be sure to buy some from him and send them my way! :D I will pay GOOD MONEY for extras!
 
#7 ·
I HAVE HEARD THAT TRAIL BOSS POWDER PROVIDES BETTER LOAD DENSITY THAN RED DOT. IM GUESSING THAT 5 GRAINS OF POWDER WOULD BE CLOSE FOR A 250 GRAIN BULLET (ONLY A GUESS) i THINK WITH RED DOT LIKELY REQUIRING ONLY 4 GRAINS MIGHT NOT FILL THE CASE SUFICANTLY.

YOU MIGHT TRY MEMBER US DRAGNIOV HE IS IN RUSSIA. FOR A KEY CHAIN.

KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE IS NO CASE EXPANSION AT THE BASE AND PART WAY UP THE BOTTOM OF THE CASE. I AM SUPRISED AT HOW MUCH NECK AND CASE CLEARANCE THE 7.62X39 CHAMBER HAS. MY ROMMY HAS CLOSE TO .010 NECK CLEARANCE THIS CAN ONLY HURT ACCURACY AND REALLY WORK THE BRASS. .004-.005 SEEMS MORE LIKE A BETTER CLEARANCE TO ME. I HAVE A CLYMER REAMER I HOPE IT IS NOT AS SLOPPY OF A CHAMBER AS THE ORIGINAL AK STUFF.

CAN YOU SWEDGE JACKETED BULLETS FROM 45 CAL DOWN TO .430 I WOULD LOVE A SOURCE FOR POINTED .430 BULLETS FOR THE 444????? PROJECT
 
#12 ·
Hello, I have been hunting some of this ammo and info myself. Glad you found one. If you do not mind sharing some of this info maybe a some of us could share the cost of a reamer. I want one ;) Thanks, Craig

craig_houchins@hotmail.com
I can vouch for Craig, a standup guy and longtime 'net friend.
 
#10 ·
If you contact a reamer manufacture they will likely give a discount on cutting multipul reamers at one time if there all the same. same thing with dies. perhaps a small group buy could be arranged.I relize that you guys were wanting to share a reamer but that is another way to go. HC has said he may be willing to allow the cutter to put the dimensions on file. another way is to get HC to ream a barrel for you if he is interested for a fair fee. I have been interested in this project since HC proposed it back when.
If I get around to a supressor I will be all over it.
 
#13 ·
Well HC wants the cartridge dimensions to be in our hands ASAP so that the cartridge can be further explored. I hope more people can make this one. There seems to be quite a few that "reinvent" the .35 x 39 and I think there is more potential there.

I'll be posting the measurements as soon as I can get my yard work finished up and spend some quality time with the calipers.

To be sure, it is a 9.3mm round. I don't know what the twist is, nor do I know what is available in the 9.3 size (aka .366") - may only be one twist available.
 
#14 ·
Dude, you instantly became a god in my book. I looked all over the places in Asscrackistan for one of those when I was there. And if I had known about the keychains I could have picked you up one. Recently took a vacation to Russia. When you get the skinny on that bad boy, let us know.
 
#15 ·
I'm not a god! Just a man. With connections. :)

I don't want to put anyone in an awkward position, so if they can speak up, I'm sure they will.

I haven't had time to sit down and measure it. I will try to do that this weekend. Just been too busy with other things right now.
 
#16 ·
member from another board turned me on to this thread...glad he did. :)


I was thinking that the bullet diameter would be able to be duplicated by standard 357-358 dia bullets. Now I see I am wrong and its a 9.3mm/366 dia...no problem.

BUT...with a quick search it would seem that Lilja is the only carrier of that particular caliber barrel and in a 1-12 twist only.


I was thinking more along the lines of using a beater bolt rifle and making it a single shot. Install with a 25-26" barrel and doses of Trailboss or unique and cast bullet loads to make it kinda quiet. Perhaps a tax stamp and a can later.

BUT...and AK in this caliber would be REALLY nice. :) make sure there is a brass catcher feature though!
 
#17 ·
Welcome, db_tanker!

Thanks guys for the offers. I will let you know what I work out. My source may have some more samples coming to me in a few weeks, and if they do then that will certainly help my measurements. I will say this, that the original draft measurements I made using Visio (based on the 9mm vs. 9.3mm) were *very* close to what I measured on this cartridge - some were actually spot-on! :)

The whole reason I'm trying to make this as close to the real thing as possible is that if ever the ammo becomes available, we could actually use it in the guns. I remember a gunsmith posting a long time ago that they asked about importing a container of it, but the minimum amount to import was pretty cost-prohibitive. So who knows, maybe in the next few years the Russian vendors will realize they can make more money off of us and offer it to us in smaller quantities! "Here's hoping" LOL


Once I get a chamber reamer made, the first thing I will do is fireform some of the brass I have. That will help me determine if we can "simply" fireform, or if a different source of brass is required. I'm a little concerned that the neck won't be long enough from a fireformed 7.62x39 round due to the expansion, but this fear may be unsubstantiated. We'll see!

I feel that I'm honestly going to be able to have something around the first of the year - I will need a few things to work out for me on the home front and if/when they do then I'll have some more time to devote to this. Real Life keeps getting in the way! :)
 
#19 ·
No, US_D, no updates at this time. I have been so busy with the commute to DC, that I'm just out of steam by the end of the day. Weekends have been busy due to a party my wife threw this weekend, so with any luck, I am off the hook for a few weeks... I doubt it however :)


Request for opinions - RCBS or CH4D for wildcat dies/reamers? Or....?
 
#21 ·
I see that they are all drilled cases. Any chance of getting some live stuff???

HC I've been thinkin' about what you were talking about having to find an outside source for the brass. So lets put our brains together. What other cartridges are based off of the 7.62x39 case head???

I know the .22 PPC and the 6mm PPC. However they are not as long as the 7.62x39. Maybe find a source of brass for the .22 PPC and the 6mm PPC and see if they offer unformed brass. If it is long enough then maybe it would easier then fire forming.
 
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