Gunco Forums banner

300 SAVAGE LOOKS GOOD

7K views 60 replies 7 participants last post by  TRX 
#1 ·
I HAVE MENTIONED THE 300 SAVAGE IN THE PAST. THE MORE I LOOK AT THE MORE I LIKE IT. A SAMMI LIMIT OF 47,000 PSI IS ONLY 2000 PSI MORE THEN THE 7.62X39. IT IS SLIGHTLY SHORTER THAN A 308 BUT A 308 MAG WILL LIKLEY WORK AND WOULD ALSO ALLOW FOR LONGER BULLETS SEATED OUT. THE PERFORMANCE IS LOTS BETTER THAN THE X39 AS WELL MY BOOK SHOWS HAND LOADS PUSHING A 150 GRAIN BULLET AT 2741 150 GR LOAD FPS. THIS IS 500 FPS FASTER THAN A X39 AND ONLY 175 FPS SLOWER THAN A 308 WIN. IT WILL ALSO HANDEL 180 GRAIN BULLETS UP TO 2500 FPS! THIS BLOWS THE DOORS OFF THE X39 ROUND AND WILL TAKE DEER AND EVEN ELK IF PROPERLY HIT. IF LOADED TO 308 PRESSURES IT WILL DO EVERY THING A 308 CAN DO AS WELL.

A MAG COULD BE SHORTEND TO ALLOW SLIHTLY MORE TRIGGER GUARD SPACE AS WELL.

WHAT I LIKE IS FACTORY LOADS WOULD LIKELY BE SAFER. THE DOWN SIDE IS MORE EXPENSVIE AMMO AND BRASS IS MORE EXPENSIVE. ANY 308 OR 30-06 AND POSSABLY NON CHROMED 7.62X39 BARREL COULD BE RECHAMBERD ( WOULD RECOMEND .310 BULLTES FOR THE AK BARREL) .

I HAVE A LINE ON A REAMER I MAY PURCHASE. THE 250 SAVAGE IS ANOTHER ONE, THERE ARE VARIOUS WILD CATS AS WELL INCLUDING A 6.5-300 SAVAGE THAT WOULD OUT DO A 6.5 GRENDAL ANY DAY.
 
#29 ·
You know 7.62x39 is one rifle cartridge that went down instead of up when SAAMI went from CUP copper crusher to transducer PSI. SAAMI CUP was 50,000 CUP and SAAMI transducer PSI is now 45,000 PSI.
Hmm thats interesting I cant think of any other instances were that has happend. there must be some reason
Ive loaded till the primers have began to flatten in my hunting pistols (not a good idea and dont try it at home). im sure that is going to be close to 60,000 +psi. backed way off those loads.
 
#30 ·
In that article a pressure test barrel was use. I'm guessing it had a tight minimum chamber. It did have a .308" bore which Ruger and Colt say increased pressure of Lapua ammo by 5,000 CUP over using a .311" bore. The other handloads in the article were shot in a very early Ruger Mini-30 and in the pressure test barrel. The handloads went up to 52,000 CUP. Ruger originally used a standard Lapua chamber, then SAAMI later developed a modified chamber based on data from CIP but modified the chamber to reduce pressure when using a .308" that was more common with US rifle makers. Ruger then went to the modified chaber designed by SAAMI and continued to use a .308" barrel for a wich. I think Ruger later went to .311" barrels but still use the SAAMI chamber which is designed to reduce chamber pressure.
 
#33 ·
That's a CE Harris article from 1985. He still post on the internet. I read it again and it's a 20 inch barrel. The velocity is not out of line but a proof load might have a heavier bullet. It might be a misprint or a mistake in the pressure measurement. The Soviet SKS velocity is 735 m/s and the Yugoslavian RPK velocity is 733 m/s. I think the Yugoslavian AK velocity is 720 m/s and the Soviet AK velocity is 715 m/s but some sources say 710 m/s.
 
#34 ·
I still think the 300 savage woud be a great round for a AK. necked down to 6.5mm would be a good one as well and blow the 6.5 grendal out of the water. theres a 270 savage wildcat in the cartridge conversion book made from 270 brass and cut down to 1.87" pushes a 130 grainer to 2763 FPS.
 
#37 ·
good point. I wish the special powder those round use was available.
I think the 30 caliber uses special powder and the 6.5mm uses Hodgdon powder. I think they published the load data and used regular powder to help sell the cartridge. In an AK I don't think I'd want them at full power anyway because they still run high pressure with 308 size case heads. I just like the case shape better than 300 Savage. 300 Savage might not be a problem to feed an AK but these days it's not super popular, but it might outlast the new cartridges.
 
#40 ·
It might be a "safer" choice to keep hot loaded ammo out of the rifle compared to other cartridges.
that was my original thoughts and the possabilty of possably sectioning a mag a little bit to gain a little triggger guard room. I have a lot of HOT 308 ammo a round here for my bolt actions and I would hate to accidently get the wrong round into my 308 AK. I have a son who is only 8 and down the road he will be shooting these or inheariting them and I am a little leary
 
#41 · (Edited)
I friend of mine got a Savage Model 99 from his father's estate, with eight other lever guns of various kinds. I'd never been a fan of lever guns, but the 99 changed that. I liked the balance, and the rotary magazine. And it was chambered in .300 Savage. I remembered the .300 thread here, so I looked up the specs of the cartridges.

Wow. The pressure and velocity are all over the place depending on where I look, but for the same bullet weight the .300 gives up a negligible amount velocity for a whole lot less pressure. It's down in the .30-06 range in pressure, but overlaps .308 velocities. WTF? I guess tiny differences in case design can make a big difference in pressure.

I *like* the .300! An AK in .300 would be way cool. Hmm... I wonder if an SKS could be converted to .300 without major work. [doubleplus ungood badthink... must... resist... too many projects already...]
 
#42 ·
After WWII the US military wanted to modernize their weapons after seeing the German weapons. Congress wasn't interested in spending money on weapons right after winning the world's largest war and the military was downsizing and getting rid of extra weapons. Winchester has lost most of the military powder contracts to Dupont (IMR). Winchester still had friends and contacts in the military and the Cold War was just starting.

During WWII there were shortages of copper to make brass and lead to make bullets. Winchester in a bid to make military contracts showed the military that it could about match military 30-06 in 300 Savage using their ball powder(within 100 fps). The US military used this fact and the Cold War to tell Congress that a new "smaller" cartridge would require less copper and lead. In fact the first 7.62 NATO bullets were steel core without any lead. The military wanted the full 30-06 velocity and less shoulder angle than the 300 Savage. So the 300 Savage cartridge was extended and made in to the 308 Winchester.

Of course this "new" cartridge would require "new" weapons to use it. This is one of the reason the military was so interested in replacing the 30-06. It gave them a good excuse for new weapons that they wanted since WWII. The Winchester ball powders at the time produced much more muzzle flash than Dupont's IMR powders. This resulted in the long flash hiders on the M14, M60, FAL/L1A1 and MAG58. It wasn't until later that it was discovered that slotted flash hiders didn't have to be so long and didn't require a small opening at the front. The long slotted flash hiders did work better than the older cone flash hiders.

Winchester thought that since the new cartridge used their ball powder and they designed it that they would have exclusive contracts for it. Dupont still had military and political friends and contacts. The increase in size in the 308 Win from the 300 Savage allowed some Dupont IMR powders to work within specs in the 308 Win. Dupont was able to have the military ammunition contracts for 7.62x51 to be split between Winchester and Dupont (IMR/Remington).

During the Vietnam War the ball bullet was changed from steel core to lead core. There hasn't been a lead or copper shortage since WWII. Winchester was interested in contracts and the military was interested in new weapons. The 7.62x51 is more of a 300 Savage sized up than a 30-06 sized down. The base cartridge for 300 Savage was 30-06 though.
 
#43 ·
After WWII the US military wanted to modernize their weapons after seeing the German weapons. Congress wasn't interested in spending money on weapons right after winning the world's largest war and the military was downsizing and getting rid of extra weapons. Winchester has lost most of the military powder contracts to Dupont (IMR). Winchester still had friends and contacts in the military and the Cold War was just starting.

During WWII there were shortages of copper to make brass and lead to make bullets. Winchester in a bid to make military contracts showed the military that it could about match military 30-06 in 300 Savage using their ball powder(within 100 fps). The US military used this fact and the Cold War to tell Congress that a new "smaller" cartridge would require less copper and lead. In fact the first 7.62 NATO bullets were steel core without any lead. The military wanted the full 30-06 velocity and less shoulder angle than the 300 Savage. So the 300 Savage cartridge was extended and made in to the 308 Winchester.

Of course this "new" cartridge would require "new" weapons to use it. This is one of the reason the military was so interested in replacing the 30-06. It gave them a good excuse for new weapons that they wanted since WWII. The Winchester ball powders at the time produced much more muzzle flash than Dupont's IMR powders. This resulted in the long flash hiders on the M14, M60, FAL/L1A1 and MAG58. It wasn't until later that it was discovered that slotted flash hiders didn't have to be so long and didn't require a small opening at the front. The long slotted flash hiders did work better than the older cone flash hiders.

Winchester thought that since the new cartridge used their ball powder and they designed it that they would have exclusive contracts for it. Dupont still had military and political friends and contacts. The increase in size in the 308 Win from the 300 Savage allowed some Dupont IMR powders to work within specs in the 308 Win. Dupont was able to have the military ammunition contracts for 7.62x51 to be split between Winchester and Dupont (IMR/Remington).

During the Vietnam War the ball bullet was changed from steel core to lead core. There hasn't been a lead or copper shortage since WWII. Winchester was interested in contracts and the military was interested in new weapons. The 7.62x51 is more of a 300 Savage sized up than a 30-06 sized down. The base cartridge for 300 Savage was 30-06 though.
good write up.

what i like is most factory loads are loaded pretty light for the various weaker leveractions so if a AK was done it likley could fire most factory ammo on a 2 lug design. it would deffinatly be safer than a 308 were there are some really hot factory loads avaliable. The likely hood of me accidentaly loading a hot 300 into my gun would be slim as It is the only one I have. a 6.5 wild cat with long bullets would fit nicely into a 308 mag and not have OAL length issues like the 260 remingto does. kind of a poor mans creedmore. I have been looking at a 6.5-22-250 wilad cat as well. it would blow the doors of a grendal and still be a short round. the down side to the 300 is there is not any cheap surplus ammo or brass.
to many combos to little time and money.
 
#45 ·
Ive been really thinking this one over. I have a line on a reamer and if come through Im going to make it happen. i have been looking over the G3 mags and I have some ideas to be able to easly modify them to work easly and also take a longer bullet for use with a 260 or 6mm with the really long bulllets it might take a little welding but for $3 each I can do that.

I can get a 150 going 2700 FPS at only 44,000 CUP out of a 22" pipe this is a really good deer deer round and its also a max load with Varget powder for this round so If backed of just a little it should be safe IMOO ONLY on any trunion or bolt.

Im thinking of making my own custom flats that are longer and moving the trunion forward and extending a small stem bolt with a sleave and running it in a large stem carrier that is also extended . I dont like the small trigger guard clearance that you get with moving back the guard to fit a 308 mag. If this all works out I might make up some extra barrels to sell since I hope to have a reamer.

I need a flat shooting pistol with more HP on deer the x39 is just a little to weak at 200 yards with a 14" barrel. i want to get a 150 going at least 2500 FPS nnot sure I can get that in a 14" barrel however. im going to check some of the thompson pistol sites and see what they are getting in shorter barrels.
 
#46 ·
> reamer

Try reamerrentals.com. $36, and they will rent headspace gauges too.


> Im thinking of making my own custom flats that are longer
> and moving the trunion forward

If it's going to be longer, why not use a PSL receiver and top cover? I haven't seen PSL flats, but there are 80% and ready-to-build receivers out there.


> I dont like the small trigger guard clearance that you get
> with moving back the guard to fit a 308 mag.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. If it's the latch mechanism that's the problem, you could address that by building from scratch, and you could build it to accept the non-AK magazines too. Or you could extend the AK latch to the back or side, like various Valmets, Galils, and aftermarket latches.
 
#47 ·
Im going to buy a reamer for this if i d it, Susposedlya guy has it and several others laying around that may be free or dirt cheap.

I can make a flat for about $8 and even if I dont move the trunion forward I dont want mag well demples.

I have several Ideas on how to lay it out. I have done a 308 before were every thing was moved back and it is fine and there are several ways to do mag latches. I was thinging of a mag well that also serves as center support and just using a latch like a AR as well on the GS mags. the mages are cheap enought that you can cut them weld on them ect and its no loss. I am doing several builds on longer brass in the near future and am going to try to make them all basicaly the same set up.
 
#48 ·
I HAVE A REAMER ON THE WAY!!

I also have a couple take off barrels coming that I can rechamber. need dies and brass now and some factory ammo and lots more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Im thing the first thing should be in a simple rommy or AMD 65 profile. that I can slam on a bent flat and see how it goes. might just do a cheap pistol.

I played with some G3 mags and Im sure I can make mod's to them that will allow them to work on a rivet build with out grinding the trunion.

Im Kind of backing off the extended reciver idea for know. Ill get the finger clearance a differant way.

this round is a huge improvement over the x39 and the hottest load in my winchester book for a 150 GR is 35 gr of 748 (likley the same powder Win uses in factory ammo) with a MV of 2600FPS !! and makes only 41,000 CUP. thats about 500 fps over the x39 in a 150gr. there is one load in that book rated in PSI it is a 165GR bullet 39.5 grains of 748 making 2340 FPS but here is the kicker the max load makes 39,900 PSI.

If some one here can do the math for me what is the bolt thrust of the X39 at 45,000 PSI vs the larger head of the 300 savage (same as a 308) at only 39,000 PSI ??? out side head diamiter of the 300 savage is
is .467 the x39 is .437. inside diamiter numbers should really be used for actual bolt thrust but a OD measure ment will work for a differance in thrust measurement.

Im betting the bolt thrust is damm near the same. THUS IMOO A SAFE AK 47 TWO LUG ROUND load ON A STANDARD TRUNION. do so at your own risk I failed math in high school It wasent interesting then.

If this works out I will make some barrels for sale.
 
#49 ·
Cartridge: 300 Savage
Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

100 GR. SPR RN SP Winchester 748 .308" 2.475" 45.2 2930 41,500 CUP
100 GR. SPR RN SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.475" 41.0 2755 43.0 2959
100 GR. SPR RN SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.475" 41.0 2741 43.0 2952
100 GR. SPR RN SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.475" 41.0 2819 43.0 3002
100 GR. SPR RN SP Hodgdon H4198 .308" 2.475" 34.0 2914 37.0 3103
110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.450" 39.5 2652 43.0 2940
110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.450" 39.0 2639 43.0 2947
110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.450" 39.5 2669 43.0 2944
110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4198 .308" 2.450" 34.0 2742 37.0 2978
130 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.520" 38.0 2503 41.0 2634
130 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.520" 38.0 2494 41.0 2631
130 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.520" 39.5 2324 43.0 2698
130 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4198 .308" 2.520" 33.0 2624 36.0 2837
150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4320 308" 2.520" 41.5 2555 46,000 CUP
150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4064 .308" 2.520" 40.0 2565 45,400 CUP
150 GR. NOS PART Winchester 748 .308" 2.520" 40.9 2505 42,000 PSI
150 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.520" 36.0 2321 39.0 2574
150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.520" 40.0 2570 45,900 CUP
150 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.520" 36.0 2303 39.0 2545
150 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.520" 37.0 2187 40.0 2408
150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 3031 .308" 2.520" 38.5 2575 44,500 CUP
150 GR. NOS PART IMR SR 4759 .308" 2.520" 23.5 2095 45,500 CUP
165 GR. SIE SPBT Winchester 748 .308" 2.600" 39.5 2340 39,900 PSI
165 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.600" 34.0 2204 37.0 2249
165 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.600" 34.0 2186 37.0 2240
165 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.600" 35.0 2164 38.0 2341
180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4350 .308" 2.600" 44.0C 2350 46,000 CUP
180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4320 .308" 2.600" 40.0 2390 46,000 CUP
180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4064 .308" 2.600" 38.5 2395 45,900 CUP
180 GR. HDY SP Winchester 748 .308" 2.600" 38.8 2350 45,600 PSI
180 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.600" 32.0 1987 35.0 2069
180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.600" 38.5 2390 45,700 CUP
180 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.600" 32.0 1974 35.0 2074
180 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.600" 34.0 2081 37.0 2130
180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 3031 .308" 2.600" 37.0 2390 45,900 CUP
180 GR. HDY SP IMR SR 4759 .308" 2.600" 22.5 1910 45,500 CUP
200 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.550" 31.0 1934 34.0 2047
200 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.550" 32.0 1973 35.0 2089
 
#50 ·
> may be free or dirt cheap.

Dave's Law: "Cheap is a quality overcoming many faults."


> I was thinging of a mag well that also serves as center
> support and just using a latch like a AR as well on the GS
> mags. ... Im doing several builds on longer brass in the
> near future and am going to try to make them all basicaly
> the same set up.

How different is an AR-10 magwell from an AR-15 magwell? Can you put an AR-10 mag inside an AR-15? Once I finish the dies for the Beowulf magwell I could make a couple of extras and send one your way.

Kragaxe made a G3 magwell here: http://www.gunco.net/forums/f244/243-win-based-ak-innards-50023/
though Pookie went a different G3 route here: http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AKM/AK_308/mag_308.htm

Then there's the Valmet .308 magazine option, though a little fiddling might be required at the front lug area; I've seen reports either way.
 
#51 ·
I havent ruled out a G3 style mag well yet. This is not my first 308 win length build I have had a pistol up and running for several years. Im trying to step up the Quality of my next builds and get them more standardised.

Im getting tired of building recivers and buying kits and am gettting more and more interested in doing a high quality switch barrel build so that every time i want to try a new caliber all i got to do is turn the barrel and screw it in.

I just found a custom stainless light profile fluted 300 remington ultra mag barrel with a custom brake. I plan on rechambering this to 300 savage If I can keep enough stub OD to fit a threaded trunion. If I can then it will end up on a press in build possably in
308x39 ( 308bore 7.63x39) or who knows a 300 savage as well. Its a lot more work building a 3" mag well gun than a standard one. the demples get in the way of a GS mag and the center support is further back custom rails need to be made. I normaly start with a custom flat that I make and bend that up. A bent blank is another way to go.

ARE THERE STILL BENT BLANKS FOR THE YUGO OUT THERE??????
 
#52 ·
ARE THERE STILL BENT BLANKS FOR THE YUGO OUT THERE??????
As far as I can tell the only Yugo flats were the Tapcos, and those went out of stock six months ago. Last time I looked I found zero in stock anywhere.

AK-builder is still working on his die set for Yugo flats. Right now I have the Tapco flat for the test mule, and I'll buy an RPK receiver from NDS for the final build if I have to.

A couple of guys here on Gunco managed to put Yugo bulges into flats.
 
#53 ·
im not talking about a flat Im takning about a bent blank. I can make a flat with the bulges it i need to. I dont want a mag well or any holes or demples so I will start from scratch. however there were prebent no holes drilled Blanks.

I have a couple of the folding stock tapco blanks still.
 
#54 ·
Im thinking of slamming a barrel on a AMD 65 kit real quick just to get one of these up and running in 300 savage. Likley just go light barrel standard profile with AMD brake and all except it will have a big mag. I may also come up with a proof round of some sort and see what happens. I wish there was more data on over loads.

My next concern is if it handels 75,000 PSI is it still safe to shoot or has it been weekend possably? I have a really rusy kit Im tempted to do a 308 win test until destruction type deal I just want it to be usable data when Im done.

Is there any were in the US that will do proof testing on personal fire arms???
 
#55 ·
I see on a few sites that 308 and 30-06 brass can be formed into 300 Savage. that would ease the cost of brass and finding it. I should have a reamer in a week or so.

2900 fps quality 130 GR bullets has really got me thinking this thing shoud shoot pretty flat out to 300 yards. much better than 2300 FPS 125 grain so so bullets. :)

I really need a chrono for this stuff. It will be interesting to se what a 14" barrel can do.
 
#56 ·
well here is the barrel im considering chambering to 300 savage its a krieger stainless steel fluted with a brake in 300win mag. Its almost a shame to waste on a 300 savage and im having reservations of doing it it might look better in 300 WSM on my 308 Sagia. I cant do a threaded barrel build on a 23mm trunion so it would have to be press and pined on a Yugo truion or I can go to a 22mm trunion anuse 24MM threads but here it is she is a beauty.

also a g3 mag in a saiga trunion I have a plan for this
 

Attachments

#57 ·
well the barrel is chamberd (see my sons swith barrel build inthe build section)

I ran some 7.62x51 lake city brass through a standard sizing die and it formed just fine as near as i can tell i didnt aneal the brass or any thing. I had to trimm a ton of the neck but it fits the chamber fine. so the expensive brass issue is not a issue I think.

I was looking at the round when the case was still un trimmed and it got me to thinking. one of the issues with the 300 savage is susposedly the short neck. I have a 30cal neck and throat reamer, and am considering making the neck and throat of my chamber longer this will give a longer neck and allow better seating of the bullet. it will also allow me to not have to trim or not trim as much off a 308 case. 300 standard savage will still fire just fine but there will be a lot of free bore. 99% of ammo in this build will be hand loads any way so a custom chamber is not a big deal. It will be a semi wild cat in a way. I can call it the 300KBG ( Klaskinov Big GUN) or the 7.62 LN (long neck) or the 308 ************ (Military/rabit hunter) who knows. :)
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top