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Thread: 300 SAVAGE LOOKS GOOD

  1. #41
    TRX
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    I friend of mine got a Savage Model 99 from his father's estate, with eight other lever guns of various kinds. I'd never been a fan of lever guns, but the 99 changed that. I liked the balance, and the rotary magazine. And it was chambered in .300 Savage. I remembered the .300 thread here, so I looked up the specs of the cartridges.

    Wow. The pressure and velocity are all over the place depending on where I look, but for the same bullet weight the .300 gives up a negligible amount velocity for a whole lot less pressure. It's down in the .30-06 range in pressure, but overlaps .308 velocities. WTF? I guess tiny differences in case design can make a big difference in pressure.

    I *like* the .300! An AK in .300 would be way cool. Hmm... I wonder if an SKS could be converted to .300 without major work. [doubleplus ungood badthink... must... resist... too many projects already...]
    Last edited by TRX; 09-10-2009 at 01:05 PM. Reason: evil spelling demons infested original message

  2. #42
    Gunco Regular allesennogwat's Avatar
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    After WWII the US military wanted to modernize their weapons after seeing the German weapons. Congress wasn't interested in spending money on weapons right after winning the world's largest war and the military was downsizing and getting rid of extra weapons. Winchester has lost most of the military powder contracts to Dupont (IMR). Winchester still had friends and contacts in the military and the Cold War was just starting.

    During WWII there were shortages of copper to make brass and lead to make bullets. Winchester in a bid to make military contracts showed the military that it could about match military 30-06 in 300 Savage using their ball powder(within 100 fps). The US military used this fact and the Cold War to tell Congress that a new "smaller" cartridge would require less copper and lead. In fact the first 7.62 NATO bullets were steel core without any lead. The military wanted the full 30-06 velocity and less shoulder angle than the 300 Savage. So the 300 Savage cartridge was extended and made in to the 308 Winchester.

    Of course this "new" cartridge would require "new" weapons to use it. This is one of the reason the military was so interested in replacing the 30-06. It gave them a good excuse for new weapons that they wanted since WWII. The Winchester ball powders at the time produced much more muzzle flash than Dupont's IMR powders. This resulted in the long flash hiders on the M14, M60, FAL/L1A1 and MAG58. It wasn't until later that it was discovered that slotted flash hiders didn't have to be so long and didn't require a small opening at the front. The long slotted flash hiders did work better than the older cone flash hiders.

    Winchester thought that since the new cartridge used their ball powder and they designed it that they would have exclusive contracts for it. Dupont still had military and political friends and contacts. The increase in size in the 308 Win from the 300 Savage allowed some Dupont IMR powders to work within specs in the 308 Win. Dupont was able to have the military ammunition contracts for 7.62x51 to be split between Winchester and Dupont (IMR/Remington).

    During the Vietnam War the ball bullet was changed from steel core to lead core. There hasn't been a lead or copper shortage since WWII. Winchester was interested in contracts and the military was interested in new weapons. The 7.62x51 is more of a 300 Savage sized up than a 30-06 sized down. The base cartridge for 300 Savage was 30-06 though.

  3. #43
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    After WWII the US military wanted to modernize their weapons after seeing the German weapons. Congress wasn't interested in spending money on weapons right after winning the world's largest war and the military was downsizing and getting rid of extra weapons. Winchester has lost most of the military powder contracts to Dupont (IMR). Winchester still had friends and contacts in the military and the Cold War was just starting.

    During WWII there were shortages of copper to make brass and lead to make bullets. Winchester in a bid to make military contracts showed the military that it could about match military 30-06 in 300 Savage using their ball powder(within 100 fps). The US military used this fact and the Cold War to tell Congress that a new "smaller" cartridge would require less copper and lead. In fact the first 7.62 NATO bullets were steel core without any lead. The military wanted the full 30-06 velocity and less shoulder angle than the 300 Savage. So the 300 Savage cartridge was extended and made in to the 308 Winchester.

    Of course this "new" cartridge would require "new" weapons to use it. This is one of the reason the military was so interested in replacing the 30-06. It gave them a good excuse for new weapons that they wanted since WWII. The Winchester ball powders at the time produced much more muzzle flash than Dupont's IMR powders. This resulted in the long flash hiders on the M14, M60, FAL/L1A1 and MAG58. It wasn't until later that it was discovered that slotted flash hiders didn't have to be so long and didn't require a small opening at the front. The long slotted flash hiders did work better than the older cone flash hiders.

    Winchester thought that since the new cartridge used their ball powder and they designed it that they would have exclusive contracts for it. Dupont still had military and political friends and contacts. The increase in size in the 308 Win from the 300 Savage allowed some Dupont IMR powders to work within specs in the 308 Win. Dupont was able to have the military ammunition contracts for 7.62x51 to be split between Winchester and Dupont (IMR/Remington).

    During the Vietnam War the ball bullet was changed from steel core to lead core. There hasn't been a lead or copper shortage since WWII. Winchester was interested in contracts and the military was interested in new weapons. The 7.62x51 is more of a 300 Savage sized up than a 30-06 sized down. The base cartridge for 300 Savage was 30-06 though.
    good write up.

    what i like is most factory loads are loaded pretty light for the various weaker leveractions so if a AK was done it likley could fire most factory ammo on a 2 lug design. it would deffinatly be safer than a 308 were there are some really hot factory loads avaliable. The likely hood of me accidentaly loading a hot 300 into my gun would be slim as It is the only one I have. a 6.5 wild cat with long bullets would fit nicely into a 308 mag and not have OAL length issues like the 260 remingto does. kind of a poor mans creedmore. I have been looking at a 6.5-22-250 wilad cat as well. it would blow the doors of a grendal and still be a short round. the down side to the 300 is there is not any cheap surplus ammo or brass.
    to many combos to little time and money.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
    the down side to the 300 is there is not any cheap surplus ammo or brass.
    There's not much cheap .308 out there lately... and I doubt we'll see $75 spam cans of 7.62x39 again, either.

    Cabela's lists .300 Savage brass in stock at $27.99/50. They show .308 for $19.99, which is darned good nowadays.

  5. #45
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Ive been really thinking this one over. I have a line on a reamer and if come through Im going to make it happen. i have been looking over the G3 mags and I have some ideas to be able to easly modify them to work easly and also take a longer bullet for use with a 260 or 6mm with the really long bulllets it might take a little welding but for $3 each I can do that.

    I can get a 150 going 2700 FPS at only 44,000 CUP out of a 22" pipe this is a really good deer deer round and its also a max load with Varget powder for this round so If backed of just a little it should be safe IMOO ONLY on any trunion or bolt.

    Im thinking of making my own custom flats that are longer and moving the trunion forward and extending a small stem bolt with a sleave and running it in a large stem carrier that is also extended . I dont like the small trigger guard clearance that you get with moving back the guard to fit a 308 mag. If this all works out I might make up some extra barrels to sell since I hope to have a reamer.

    I need a flat shooting pistol with more HP on deer the x39 is just a little to weak at 200 yards with a 14" barrel. i want to get a 150 going at least 2500 FPS nnot sure I can get that in a 14" barrel however. im going to check some of the thompson pistol sites and see what they are getting in shorter barrels.

  6. #46
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    > reamer

    Try reamerrentals.com. $36, and they will rent headspace gauges too.


    > Im thinking of making my own custom flats that are longer
    > and moving the trunion forward

    If it's going to be longer, why not use a PSL receiver and top cover? I haven't seen PSL flats, but there are 80% and ready-to-build receivers out there.


    > I dont like the small trigger guard clearance that you get
    > with moving back the guard to fit a 308 mag.

    I'm not sure what you're getting at. If it's the latch mechanism that's the problem, you could address that by building from scratch, and you could build it to accept the non-AK magazines too. Or you could extend the AK latch to the back or side, like various Valmets, Galils, and aftermarket latches.

  7. #47
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Im going to buy a reamer for this if i d it, Susposedlya guy has it and several others laying around that may be free or dirt cheap.

    I can make a flat for about $8 and even if I dont move the trunion forward I dont want mag well demples.

    I have several Ideas on how to lay it out. I have done a 308 before were every thing was moved back and it is fine and there are several ways to do mag latches. I was thinging of a mag well that also serves as center support and just using a latch like a AR as well on the GS mags. the mages are cheap enought that you can cut them weld on them ect and its no loss. I am doing several builds on longer brass in the near future and am going to try to make them all basicaly the same set up.

  8. #48
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    I HAVE A REAMER ON THE WAY!!

    I also have a couple take off barrels coming that I can rechamber. need dies and brass now and some factory ammo and lots more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

    Im thing the first thing should be in a simple rommy or AMD 65 profile. that I can slam on a bent flat and see how it goes. might just do a cheap pistol.

    I played with some G3 mags and Im sure I can make mod's to them that will allow them to work on a rivet build with out grinding the trunion.

    Im Kind of backing off the extended reciver idea for know. Ill get the finger clearance a differant way.

    this round is a huge improvement over the x39 and the hottest load in my winchester book for a 150 GR is 35 gr of 748 (likley the same powder Win uses in factory ammo) with a MV of 2600FPS !! and makes only 41,000 CUP. thats about 500 fps over the x39 in a 150gr. there is one load in that book rated in PSI it is a 165GR bullet 39.5 grains of 748 making 2340 FPS but here is the kicker the max load makes 39,900 PSI.

    If some one here can do the math for me what is the bolt thrust of the X39 at 45,000 PSI vs the larger head of the 300 savage (same as a 308) at only 39,000 PSI ??? out side head diamiter of the 300 savage is
    is .467 the x39 is .437. inside diamiter numbers should really be used for actual bolt thrust but a OD measure ment will work for a differance in thrust measurement.

    Im betting the bolt thrust is damm near the same. THUS IMOO A SAFE AK 47 TWO LUG ROUND load ON A STANDARD TRUNION. do so at your own risk I failed math in high school It wasent interesting then.

    If this works out I will make some barrels for sale.

  9. #49
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Cartridge: 300 Savage
    Load Type: Rifle
    Starting Loads

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Maximum Loads

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    100 GR. SPR RN SP Winchester 748 .308" 2.475" 45.2 2930 41,500 CUP
    100 GR. SPR RN SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.475" 41.0 2755 43.0 2959
    100 GR. SPR RN SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.475" 41.0 2741 43.0 2952
    100 GR. SPR RN SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.475" 41.0 2819 43.0 3002
    100 GR. SPR RN SP Hodgdon H4198 .308" 2.475" 34.0 2914 37.0 3103
    110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.450" 39.5 2652 43.0 2940
    110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.450" 39.0 2639 43.0 2947
    110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.450" 39.5 2669 43.0 2944
    110 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4198 .308" 2.450" 34.0 2742 37.0 2978
    130 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.520" 38.0 2503 41.0 2634
    130 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.520" 38.0 2494 41.0 2631
    130 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.520" 39.5 2324 43.0 2698
    130 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4198 .308" 2.520" 33.0 2624 36.0 2837
    150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4320 308" 2.520" 41.5 2555 46,000 CUP
    150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4064 .308" 2.520" 40.0 2565 45,400 CUP
    150 GR. NOS PART Winchester 748 .308" 2.520" 40.9 2505 42,000 PSI
    150 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.520" 36.0 2321 39.0 2574
    150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.520" 40.0 2570 45,900 CUP
    150 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.520" 36.0 2303 39.0 2545
    150 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.520" 37.0 2187 40.0 2408
    150 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 3031 .308" 2.520" 38.5 2575 44,500 CUP
    150 GR. NOS PART IMR SR 4759 .308" 2.520" 23.5 2095 45,500 CUP
    165 GR. SIE SPBT Winchester 748 .308" 2.600" 39.5 2340 39,900 PSI
    165 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.600" 34.0 2204 37.0 2249
    165 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.600" 34.0 2186 37.0 2240
    165 GR. SIE SPBT Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.600" 35.0 2164 38.0 2341
    180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4350 .308" 2.600" 44.0C 2350 46,000 CUP
    180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4320 .308" 2.600" 40.0 2390 46,000 CUP
    180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4064 .308" 2.600" 38.5 2395 45,900 CUP
    180 GR. HDY SP Winchester 748 .308" 2.600" 38.8 2350 45,600 PSI
    180 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .308" 2.600" 32.0 1987 35.0 2069
    180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4895 .308" 2.600" 38.5 2390 45,700 CUP
    180 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.600" 32.0 1974 35.0 2074
    180 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.600" 34.0 2081 37.0 2130
    180 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 3031 .308" 2.600" 37.0 2390 45,900 CUP
    180 GR. HDY SP IMR SR 4759 .308" 2.600" 22.5 1910 45,500 CUP
    200 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon H335 .308" 2.550" 31.0 1934 34.0 2047
    200 GR. SPR SP Hodgdon H4895 .308" 2.550" 32.0 1973 35.0 2089

  10. #50
    TRX
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    > may be free or dirt cheap.

    Dave's Law: "Cheap is a quality overcoming many faults."


    > I was thinging of a mag well that also serves as center
    > support and just using a latch like a AR as well on the GS
    > mags. ... Im doing several builds on longer brass in the
    > near future and am going to try to make them all basicaly
    > the same set up.

    How different is an AR-10 magwell from an AR-15 magwell? Can you put an AR-10 mag inside an AR-15? Once I finish the dies for the Beowulf magwell I could make a couple of extras and send one your way.

    Kragaxe made a G3 magwell here: http://www.gunco.net/forums/f244/243...innards-50023/
    though Pookie went a different G3 route here: http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK...08/mag_308.htm

    Then there's the Valmet .308 magazine option, though a little fiddling might be required at the front lug area; I've seen reports either way.

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