Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24

Thread: 410 Saiga pressure issues?

  1. #11
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Williamsburg, VA
    Posts
    7,647
    Feedback Score
    3 (100%)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
    Tony did fire his gun quite a bit as I recall and it held up. he didnt sell them due to the stock mag not working correctly for the 444 marlin.
    Therein lies the problem - what kind of loads did he use, what is the bolt made from, etc. One could guess that it is the same as the other Saiga rifles, since materials procurement would be simplified. THEN AGAIN it would be cheaper to obtain something less strong since it would probably save costs. I don't know.

    If the trunion DOES look like a 7.62x39 trunion, then you can reasonably expect to use a 7.62x39 parts kit and build from that.

    A thought - on the books it would still be a shotgun, correct? If so, then one should consider the need for an 18" barrel no matter the caliber! Otherwise it would be *classified* as a short-barreled shotgun! *oops*

    I wonder if thera are any special requirements for "reclassifying" a shotgun as a rifle? Those huge builds that Hubel is working on are all technically shotguns, and as such are not classified as Destructive Devices. I'd be concerned about using the shotgun platform as a base for several reasons.

  2. #12
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    13,241
    Feedback Score
    14 (100%)

    Default

    Therein lies the problem - what kind of loads did he use, what is the bolt made from, etc. One could guess that it is the same as the other Saiga rifles, since materials procurement would be simplified. THEN AGAIN it would be cheaper to obtain something less strong since it would probably save costs. I don't know.

    If the trunion DOES look like a 7.62x39 trunion, then you can reasonably expect to use a 7.62x39 parts kit and build from that.

    A thought - on the books it would still be a shotgun, correct? If so, then one should consider the need for an 18" barrel no matter the caliber! Otherwise it would be *classified* as a short-barreled shotgun! *oops*

    I wonder if there are any special requirements for "reclassifying" a shotgun as a rifle? Those huge builds that Hubel is working on are all technically shotguns, and as such are not classified as Destructive Devices. I'd be concerned about using the shotgun platform as a base for several reasons.

    the trunion looks exactly like a AK trunion with the area for the bullet guide milled out. the bolt if anything appears stronger. the lugs are actualy bigger. as far as I know tony used factry loads in his gun. all he did was rebarrel it to a rifle barrel. the barrel has a shroud over the top to guide the round downward BTW. Tony is a smart guy and im sure he tested it out pretty well. he will answer emails and is on differant gun boards from time to time im sure he would answere some basic questions. his friend or employe eanswers for him as well some times.

    as I recall they were some how redesignated as a rifle due to the fact that he is a manufacturer. but I suspect your right that if kept as a shot gun then would need a 18" barrel unless the fact that that adding a rifle barrel makes it a rifle. the h&r handi rifle and oters come with shot gun and rifle barrels . i think there loged as a rifle however and as I recall they will not put a rifle barrel on a shot gun reciver but I think that was a strength issue. I have a savage combo gun that is a rifle on top and a shotgun on the bottom. not sure of the law. the saiga uses a standard width reciver so a new reciver could be added and just use the parts from the shot gun but the have the serial number on the trunion so if it was ran it would still likely come up as a shot gun HMMMMMM

    here are some pics of my bolt and trunion as well as a 500 S&W case in the bolt. it would take a slight amount of extracter work and a litttle of the bolt face tab to make it work.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #13
    Gunco Veteran [486]'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    MSP area, MN
    Posts
    1,631
    Feedback Score
    0

    Default

    .500 S&W is the same rim as 7.62x54r, so maybe you could just get a bolt in that caliber, a shortened PSL bolt maybe?

  4. #14
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    13,241
    Feedback Score
    14 (100%)

    Default

    there was one built already in 500 S&W on a sagia 410. the guy who built it was on the AK forum. he threaded a press in barrel trunion. it is a very very nice build there is a link here on it.

    The AK Forum :: Log in

  5. #15
    Gunco Rookie gozuki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    13
    Feedback Score
    0

    Default

    Tony did a .458 Socom too. Never did hear about how it came out...

  6. #16
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    13,241
    Feedback Score
    14 (100%)

    Default

    Tony did a .458 Socom too. Never did hear about how it came out...
    He had them for sale on his site. they were bult on a milled reciver.

  7. #17
    Gunco Rookie Corbin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    15
    Feedback Score
    0

    Default

    I've also got a 410 Saiga I'm wanting to convert. The 45/70 would be an awesome setup, but again, I have no idea how it'd handle the pressure.

    Other caliber ideas:

    44 mag
    45 Colt
    30-30
    303 maybe?


    I'm open to suggestions. I know I'll probably have to make or modify my own mags.

  8. #18
    TRX
    TRX is offline
    Gunco Irregular TRX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Central Arkansas
    Posts
    2,542
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)

  9. #19
    Gunco Regular willie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Harris Co. Jail
    Posts
    582
    Feedback Score
    0

    Default

    Two things are going to play hell with a 45-70 conversion. First is the LARGE rim. Think about reducing the rim diameter. The 45-70 will work just fine with a reduced diameter rim. I have a Mosin in 45-70 and originally modded the boltface to accommodate the large rim. The large rim played hell with the interupter and the feed angle on the Mosin. I reduced the rim diameter to 54R specs and replaced the bolt head and it feeds great. Yes I know that a Mosin and a AK are a different animal but that LARGE rim needs to be reduced because of feed issues with a box magazine. The second issue is that long straight case will make feeding a problem if the feed angle cannot be reduced (smaller rim). I have to believe this is a "Bore to Length" ratio of some sort. I know that 410 are straight but they are plastic (a slippery substance) and they usually work with with looser chambering specs. The combination of a tight chamber with a long rimmed straight case vs the more forgiving rimless tapered or bottle necked cases makes for jam potential. Placing the magazine as far back as possible may help with this issue. The last I remember reading about Tony's 444 Marlin conversion was he was redoing it in 375-444 wildcat. I got to believe it was cuz of feed issues.

    I am the last one on the planet that will ever say something can't be done. The biggest motivation is for someone to tell me it can't be done. If you are looking for 45-70 power and caliber in a different case you might consider a bottle necked wildcat cartridge based on the wsm or rum case. I do own a 500 S&W modded Saiga and a 44 Desert Eagle both of which are rimmed semiautos. I hunt with both but neither(gotta keep em clean and lubed) are as reliable as my AKs, or Glock. I'm sure the bugs can be over come on the 45-70 project just be aware of them. What ever it takes man will make it.

  10. #20
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    13,241
    Feedback Score
    14 (100%)

    Default

    I agree with Willie Id rebate the case. you arte alos going to have some isues getting it through the trunion lugs poaasably. the 410 mag wont work.

    The 410 does however feed straight walld all steel and brass shot shells. the 410 works a little differant it directs the round up at a sharp angel to a guide/shroud that comes of the top of the barrel that then guides it down again.

    If my 444???? wild cat dosent feed I may go to a top shroud/bulletguide.

    sevral years ago there was a guy in wisconsin building a 45-70 on a 20 guage Saiga and that seems like it would be a better start. he was using the 20 guage mags as well.

    if the 410 will stand up to a 444 marlin it should stand up to a 45-70. however as the base of a case gets bigger bolt thrust increases even if the pressures are the same for two rounds. in other words a 444 marlin has less bolt thrust than a 45-70 if the chamber pressures were the same.

    I have been thing of a 20 guage rifled barrel slug gun would be cool

    also a 410 brass round can be loaded with a bullet that sticks out the end. I have been wanting to take some all brass 2 1/2" shells and load them with 45 or 458 bullets and use a 3" mag and install a rifled rifle barrel onto a 410. it would give some knock down and still be classifed as a shot gun but would really be a 410 rifle. I did a thread a few years back about the idea. 410 brass shells are not that bad price wise.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Search tags for this page

There are currently no search engine referrals.
Click on a term to search our site for related topics.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •