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.30-'06 conversion notes

9K views 77 replies 12 participants last post by  jreifsch80 
#1 ·
The Valmet was available in .30-'06 with a standard-length receiver. So was the Saiga.

The only detailed description I've encountered was of the Saiga, done by "BattleRifleG3" on forum.saiga-12.com, Feb 2007.

Pictorial Writeup: Saiga-100 in 30-06 - forum.Saiga-12.com

Basically:

* the magazine well is moved back from the standard position
* the center support is moved back
* the hammer is notched to clear the relocated center support
* the barrel is moved forward in the trunnion
* the bolt face is moved forward in relation to the locking lugs
* the .30-'06 bolt appears to be the same as the .308 Saiga bolt
* the picture in his post is small, but the bolt appears to have the third lug like later .308s

A Saiga magazine isn't much use in a standard AK. Valmet '06 magazines appear to go for $100-ish. One of the magazines below might be adapted, perhaps with a magwell extension attached to the bottom of the receiver:

Johnson LMG 20 rd ($62 on GB)
Browning BAR 20 rd ($40 on GB)
FN-49 10 rd ($50 on GB)

The snag is "first you get a .308 Saiga bolt". Since they're basically unobtainium, the simplest solution is to adapt a standard bolt. The main difference is the Saiga bolt is longer from the locking lugs to the bolt face. This could be easily handled by cutting off a spare bolt, turning it to spigot into the original bolt. Braze or silver solder as needed. By cutting an extra bolt you would avoid having to make all the cuts for the extractor. You'd need a longer firing pin; cut and weld, or perhaps a PSL pin.

The ejector would have to be moved back. I've seen blank rails, or you could cut and weld a left rail to move the prong back.

The bolt carrier travel is more than adequate to handle all this.

The front of the trigger guard and the mag latch would need to be moved back, or just bend up a new one from scratch. The latch would depend on which magazine you picked, and whether you used a magwell extension.


reference for pressures: (Wikipedia, in CUP)
.308 Win 62,000
7.62x51 60,200
.30-06 58,700
7.62x54R 57,000
8mm Mauser 57,000

The .30-'06 should be safe with a standard AK trunnion.
 
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#2 ·
AHH I WOULD NOT TRUST WIKIPEDIA. SOME OF THOSE PRESSURES YOUR POSTING ARE NOT CUP PRESSURES THERE PSI! I WAS LOOKING AT SOME CARTRIDGE SPECS THE OTHER DAY AND THEY WERE COMPLETLY WRONG

IF YOU HAD A .308 WIN MAKING 62,000 CUP AS STATED THAT WOULD BE AROUND 70,000 psi NOT GOOD. ROUNDS RATED IN CUP ARE ALMOST ALWAYS A LOWER NUMBER THAN WHEN RATED IN PSI.

AS FAR A A 30-06 IN A AK iM NOT SURE ITS WORTH IT UNLESS YOU HAVE A TON OF AMMO FOR IT. THE 308 WILL DO ALMOST THE SAME AND A TON LESS WORK AND EXPENSE. DONT GET ME WRONG WHEN i HUNT WITH A BOLT GUN ITS A 06 MOST OF THE TIME. iF YOU WANT TO LENGTHEN A BOLT TAKE A 5.45 SMALL STEM BOLT AND ADD AA SLEAVE THAT IS LONGER AND MAKE IT A SPRINGLOADED PIN WHILE YOUR AT IT. I HAVENT DONE IT YET BUT THERE IS NO REASON IT WONT WORK.

The snag is "first you get a .308 Saiga bolt". Since they're basically unobtainium, the simplest solution is to adapt a standard bolt. The main difference is the Saiga bolt is longer from the locking lugs to the bolt face. This could be easily handled by cutting off a spare bolt, turning it to spigot into the original bolt. Braze or silver solder as needed. By cutting an extra bolt you would avoid having to make all the cuts for the extractor. You'd need a longer firing pin; cut and weld, or perhaps a PSL pin.
IM NOT SURE i FOLLOW YOU BUT IF YOUR SAYING ADDING A SECTION OF BOLT FACE TO ANOTHER BOLT THATS A BAD IDEA ESPECIALY IF YOU ARE GOING TO BRAZE IT OR ANY THING THATSS GOING TO AFFECT TEMPER NOT TO MENTION THAT BOLT TAKES A BEATING. NOTING LIKE BRASS OR SOLDER IS GOING TO WORK EVEN IF ITS UNDER COMPRESION.

READ THE CHAMBER PRESSURE THREADS THERE ARE SAMMI SPECS IN THERE IN THE LINKS.
 
#3 · (Edited)
> AS FAR A A 30-06 IN A AK iM NOT SURE ITS WORTH IT
> UNLESS YOU HAVE A TON OF AMMO FOR IT. THE 308 WILL
> DO ALMOST THE SAME AND A TON LESS WORK AND
> EXPENSE.

"Just because" isn't enough? <grin>

The only additional work between the .30-06 and .308 would be the magazine and bolt, unless you found a Saiga bolt. Figuring you're starting from a flat, you just put the barrel and center support where you want.

Bypassing the whole .30-06 vs. .308 debate, the '06 is 3.34 inches long. This means you could use any cartridge up to that length, like the .270 Winchester, .25-06, .35 Whelen, 6.5x55 Arisaka, 6.5x55 Mauser, 7x57 Mauser, 7x61 Sharpe & Hart, 7.65x53 Argentine, 9.3x62 Mauser, etc., assuming the pressures were acceptable.

You could even take a .35 or .400 Whelen case, blow it out to .429 at the neck, and, oh, make a .44???? Long, with enough room to seat a long spitzer bullet, assuming you could find some suitable .429" bullets...
 
#4 ·
If you were seroius about a 06. I would buy a used 308 sagia and go from there. I bought mine for under $350 in a shop so there out there. $400 is pretty good when you figure what a kit a reciver and a unobtainable bolt cost or even using a 5.45 bolt that costs close to $60. yugo kits arent cheap and you would be smart to use a yugo bulged trunion IMOO. id be leary still of running full power loads in 30-06 on a two lug bolt.

all those rounds above have simular shorter version including the 444 marlin in a big bore. look at the 358 WIN, 7mm08, 308, 243, 250 savage, 260 rem ect.

BTW look at the leverlution ftx?? plastic tip bullets from hORNADY IN 265 AN 225 GRAIN THERE THE ANSWER TO A LONG 44. ALSO SEE MY RIMLESS 444 MARLIN POST ITS JUST A CUT 06 CASE RAN IN A 444 DIE.

Im all for the build if you can find the bolt. I have been looking at WSM reduced loads and there are gains to be had at 50,000PSI pressures but the the larger head size means more bolt thrust. but even a 45,000 PSI there are gains over a 308 not sure if its worth the cost. a 6.5 284 would be cool as would a normal 280.
 
#5 ·
I've looked at those notes a while back, I think I even saved those pics on my computer for future reference. They basically did everything I discovered the hard way for my .308 conversion! Wish I'd have read the thread before I did mine, would have made mine easier! :)


They are basically doing the same thing and it may work as-is, not sure if hte longer bullet will fit the Saiga opening. If not then you need to move the center support back a little ways and weld up the holes. The big thing is going to be moving back everything starting at the back of the magazine well opening, the magazine latch (and holes), the center support, and then modifying the hammer to work with the center support's new location. In fact you may find you'll need to relocate the FCG holes back as well.

I too would start with a .308 Saiga. If US_Dragunov's contact in the Izzy plant is correct, then the 3rd locking lug is an accuracy point and not a safety point. Either way, the Saiga .308 is already going to be able to push those higher pressures out of the box and that's the reason I'd select it. Welding up those holes will be no different than doing so on a Saiga conversion with the holes for that trigger ramp. You'll be able to resell that stripped .308 barrel with no problems at all.
 
#6 ·
I stripped my Romy and poked around with an '06 cartridge. I don't think you'd have to move anything back, though you'd have to shorten or modify the trigger guard and/or mag latch.

I'm a long way from getting around to my make-a-bolt project (a 4140 round bar leans against the lathe bench...), but turbothis over on theakforum has pictures of one he'd partially finished with. If he decides to sell them, he might be persuaded to make them in Saiga configuration, which would make a lot of things easier.
 
#7 ·
I found this at saiga20 -

The caption is, "A comparison of the standard AK-47 bolt holding a cartridge, and the bolt of the Saiga 20 holding a shell."

Is this a two-piece head on a small stem bolt, or is it a figment of the camera?
 

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#9 ·
I found this at saiga20 -

The caption is, "A comparison of the standard AK-47 bolt holding a cartridge, and the bolt of the Saiga 20 holding a shell."

Is this a two-piece head on a small stem bolt, or is it a figment of the camera?
Yes it is a 2-piece bolt. The "bolt face" is what holds the cartridge.
 
#8 ·
I haven't taken any measurements, but would it be worthwhile to look at a PSL as a starting point? It's already set up for the longer x54 round which is ballistically similar to the '06. It uses the bulged trunnion, and the barrel can be shortened without much fuss. Plus the recent prices have been pretty decent.
 
#11 ·
A 30-06 AK variant would be interesting, but if you were going to go to all that work, why not do a short stroke gas piston system? If you were going to modify a PSL kit it would require extensive machining. Make a block that fits in the rear sight base ala sks, and make an insert that fits into the gas tube. You could even make it adjustable by using a yugo M95 gas system for referance.
 
#14 ·
there are some other issues with a long bolt head. As the bolt hits the bullet guide and rotates the lugs of the bolt have to be past the lugs of the trunion. so you will need to move the ramp on the bullet guide forward as well. You might have to relieave the trunion slightly as well to get the longer head in there. Your only going to really want to move the barrel a head 1/2" or so as after thaat things get more complicated

I have nevver seen a 20 Guage bolt before Interesting. I to wonder how its held together. creates some interesting possabilitys. it could be presssed into a enlarged bolt face and pinned some how. if it was a interferance fit it would likely not come out if pinned some how even a blind pin would work. Interesting thanks for posting the Photo a buddy has a saiga 20 I might be able to look at.
 
#17 ·
The Saiga-12 has that same bolt-head design as well. I'm sure there are pics somewhere of a Saiga bolt disassembly process.

Lichtenberg sells rings to solder/braze into your x38 bolt to adapt it down to x25. He says they work fine.
Isn't that what caused that one bolt failure we all marvelled at a few months ago?
 
#19 ·
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lichtenberg sells rings to solder/braze into your x38 bolt to adapt it down to x25. He says they work fine.
I dont weld on bolts perticulary gas builds. There is no way to weld on a hardend bolt and not create a stress riser regardles of the size of the weld. a blow back is one thing if it fails but on a gas gun you get a failure it can be deadly.

I was thinking of boring the bolt and pressing and pinning a head like in the picture. for a X25 Ill just spend the 45-50 dollars for a 5.45 bolt and sell off the x39 bolt or use it for some thing else.

I keep saying it would be cool if some one would manufacture a 3 lug bolt with small face that can be opend up to fit the build and leave the steam long as well. make it out of the best materials that are avaliable. They would sell. I wonder what a run of 100 bolts made on CNC equipment would cost???? Guys are paying $85 dollars for 223 bolts now.
 
#20 ·
Counterboring and pinning still looks practical to me. Bolts are supposed to be tough, not hard, and thus should be machineable. You can take a file to yours and check. <grin>

Turbothis' bolt thread is here: TheAK Forum :: Log in
No traffic for a while; I rattled his cage. Anyone else interested might do the same.


I can reach out and touch the CNC mill from where I'm sitting, but I haven't had the time to learn how to use the freakin' thing. Building it was trivially simple by comparison.

X2, Xylotex 4-axis kit with 425oz steppers, heavily modded CNCFusion mount and ballscrew kit, extended Y travel, dedicated XP box, Mach3, and MeshCAM. I'd add the 4th axis and a digitizer probe in a heartbeat if I knew WTH I was doing with all this stuff... and though I used to be a draftsman for a living back in the pencil-and-track-drafter days, and I'm supposed to be an IT expert now, every CAD program I've tried to learn has driven me to the point of raking my tin cup against the bars and screaming in frustration.

Theoretically, I could put an AK bolt between centers on the 4th axis, tell Mach3 to go into digitizing mode, and after a while there'd be a complete 3D mesh to use to make another one, just like a 3D Xerox machine. Gharr....
 
#21 ·
OK - using that welded-in collar makes sense now for a BLOWBACK only. Gotcha!


I assume Mach3 is a CAD program of some sort? That would be cool! IF IT WERE ME, I'd make a raw bolt blank with a small diameter opening in the face so that I could build it into whatever sized face I need on the lathe at a later date.


Making my own bolts is on the menu. In fact it is one of the reasons I got the indexing head. I need more collets as it doesn't take the ones I have :( The challenge that I see is going to be drilling the small pin hole for the firing pin retainer in the hard steel. It is surely going to be a difficult task. The other things will be relatively simple tasks on the mill with a rotary table (or a lathe with a milling attachment). A slitting saw for the ejector groove. Then temper the metal to the approprate hardness for the metal in question. I have a big piece of 4340 steel but it is actually TOO BIG and I need to get a smaller piece LOL.


Wow as I'm typing this a deer just walked through the trees in my backyard! :)
 
#22 ·
No, Mach3 is the CNC controller software. I haven't found any CAD software worth dog spit yet.

Drilling the firing pin hole is no big deal; if you use a sprung pin the small hole is much shallower.

It's the profile of the locking lugs that stumps me. I could use the manual machines and make square lugs, but it requires a cam-operated or CNC fourth axis to cut the lugs... though I bet there are some geezers out there who could do it by eye with a file and half a plug of Red Man.
 
#25 ·
It's the profile of the locking lugs that stumps me. I could use the manual machines and make square lugs, but it requires a cam-operated or CNC fourth axis to cut the lugs... though I bet there are some geezers out there who could do it by eye with a file and half a plug of Red Man.
We discussed this a few months back on my "rotary table" thread, I think in the Tools section.

What I took away from it is that they use a precision grinder which compensates for the hardness of the tool steel, and that you need a rotary table set up to cut passes along the length of the bolt. Rotate, cut, repeat. Assume it is a tilting head rotary table, and relocate the table at a 45 degree angle to the cutting axis, use the perpendicular axis to make the 45 degree part of the lugs. A slitting saw for the ejector groove and REALLY small bits for the pin holes to finish.

Harden the steel to the appropriate temper for that metal and you can rely on the published yields for that particular hardness. Calculate bolt thrust using Gunter's forumla and you'll have a really good idea of how much it should be able to handle.

Just thinking out loud. I have birthday money and plan to get that 4" tilting rotary table from Grizzly. :)
 
#23 ·
Counterboring and pinning still looks practical to me. Bolts are supposed to be tough, not hard, and thus should be machineable. You can take a file to yours and check. <grin>

Yea there machine able they have to have some flex or they would be brittle. thre not soft by any streach of the imaganation. I have opend up bolt faces on the mill, filled lugs when truing the action etc.

ALL that CNC stuff is before my time they didnt even have CNC in when I was taking classes they had some tape with holes punched in it ot some thing to control things. I should go take some classes. If i had the $$$$$ id buy a machine learn how to use it and go into bussiness. there is no reason the entire gun cant be duplicated in bettter steels. An american AK should be bassed on a 308win/ 5.56x51 IMOO and be usable for hunting and other real world situations.

Build a super 3lug trunion and bolt that will handel 70,000 PSI and we could build
300WSM and other magnum stuff. or better yet a milled magnum reciver and super bolt than we could build some classy looking stuff to.
 
#26 ·
I guess there's no reason you can't take a dozen cuts on each cam surface.

Mount the rotary table flat on the mill table. Make a fixture to hold the bolt parallel to the table; a block of steel with a pair of perpendicular holes would do, one for the bolt, one for bolting it to the table.

Figure out your cuts on graph paper. Draw the bolt 5X or so, then use a ruler and protractor to figure how many degrees to turn the bolt before each cut. Make the cuts with the Y axis, in and out. Since the cam is a snail shape, you'll need to adjust the X (left to right) position slightly for each cut.

Index to the next lug. You could mount a disc on the tail of the bolt with some pencil marks at the correct angles and line them up with a mark on the fixture.

Use a file to dress the step at the corners of the lug where the bolt head curves downward, then dress the cam shape. Shouldn't take too many strokes to do it.

After cutting all the lugs, hit them with Dykem or felt tip, put it in the bolt carrier, and cycle it to see how it contacts the trunnion lugs. File a bit here and there as needed.

Hmm. I got so hung up on the CNC thing, it never occurred to me it could be done by hand. And for those who might boggle, Harold Brookshire showed me his camshaft prototyping setup back when he owned Ultradyne Cams. He made the master lobes for the cam grinders in that exact same way, making a bunch of cuts and smoothing them out with a polishing wheel. It was state of the art back in 1986; nowadays he doesn't touch any tools at all, he just generates the profile and emails it to one of the specialty grinders, who send the cam directly to his customer. Joe Lunati used to make his master lobes the same way.

I also got hung up on somehow measuring the precise shape of the AK bolt cam shape... but I bet "eyeball is close enough" there, too. Cut the shape slightly "fat" and keep filing until it test-cycles okay, and it doesn't matter what the precise shape is.

Hot dang, this looks doable...
 
#27 ·
what ever metal that the latest and greatest AR bolts are being made form and what ever processes there using to treat there stuff is likely what would be best. I can think of very few things that have had as much research trying to make an existing sized object stonger..

I likely cut the angles on the bolts lugs with a tool post grinder in the lathe set at the aproperiate angel and rotating the part chucked into the spindel by hand. I just need a hardend properly made 3lug bolt with square to the stem lugs thats slightly oversized. I can get the rest to fit. Id like od of the entire head a little larger to reduce the side to side play in the trunion as well
 
#28 ·
I have a bar of 4140 I bought last summer. It's the same stuff the make many bolt-action bolts out of.

Anyone have access to a Rockwell tester? It would be nice to know what the surface hardness is, or even to sacrifice a bolt and check it at various depths.
 
#29 ·
some were here there was a member who did rockwell tests. what are the latest AR bolts made of?? If there is a better materail than what the current AK bolts are made from Id want to use it. a mistake with a bolt ot trunion is the one are were you can get hurt.

Ive been tempted to take some courses at the MATC college in Madision WI. I hear they have a very Gun friendly instructer there. Id like to get the 411 on proper tempering technicues and have acess to the right stuff. i could brush up on my Mill and lathe skilles as well
 
#30 ·
I do believe that many if not most gun bolts are machined from forgings. The forging process allows the metal grain to follow the shape and thus boosts strength vs bar stock or cast pieces, heat treat aside.

Machining a bolt was often done with either a tracer mill or horizontal production mill using form cutters to create the desired radial shapes. A table-powered dividing head placed at angles to the table axis can create the symetical bevel cam shapes.

Non-symetrical cam shapes such as are found on race car engine cams are best produced on CNC grinders these days. Exotic cam profiles date back to WW-II German technology brought home by a few GI's (Ed Iskenderian et al). The profiles necessitated new machining techniques to grind.

I believe that these small gun bolts can be turned on a lathe and then milled using formed horizontal side cutters. A tool and cutter grinder will be needed to produce the special side cutter (unless you could fudge with a home-made fly-cutter).

Unlike a Rubic Cube or a Chinese puzzle there are numerous solutions to this machining challenge usually dictated by what machinery you have at hand and the quantity of parts you wish to produce.

VD
 
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