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.410 might be possible

9K views 63 replies 7 participants last post by  TRX 
#1 ·
Saiga .410s aren't $149 any more, and you'd have to find one, pay the FFL fees at both ends, plus shipping, and then you'd still have to buy all the parts and do all the work to convert it to AK configuration.

Building a parts kit into a pistol is legal. Same should apply to building a kit into a shotgun.

Kits are back down to $119 right at the moment.

Doing some preliminary doodling, it looks like it should be possible to build a standard-length AK in .410, bypassing the whole "buy and Saiga and convert it" thing.

A .410 conversion should be roughly similar to a .308 conversion. A .410 shell will fit in a .308 magazine. Do the usual mods to fit a .308 mag.

Unlike a regular cartridge, a shotshell is longer after it's fired. This should not be a problem.

The Saiga 12 and 20 gauge rifles use a two-piece bolt head, but the .410 is one-piece. I figured the two-piece bolts were for ease of manufacture or to make extraction easier, but Saiga figured the .410 didn't need it.

The .410 rim diameter is .524", a 54R is .567", so there's room to open up a standard AK bolt to .410 size.

Numrich has 3" chambered .410 barrels for $50-ish. As a wild guess, I'd expect they'd be thinner than AK barrels and would require bushings at the tenon and to mount the RSB, GB, and FSB.

Lore has it that Saiga went to the new gas block with the oversize floating piston to get sufficient zip to cycle the action with low-pressure shotgun shells. Given the AK's flexibility in handling lower pressure metallic cartridges, I'd give the stock configuration a try before getting fancy. Then I'd open up the gas port a bit, space the gas piston to put it deeper into the gas block, and maybe ream out the gas block as far as practical and sleeve the piston. If none of those worked, a homemade gas block with a Saiga-sized piston ought to work. The floating tappet shouldn't be necessary.

If you started with a Yugo gas block, you could make it adjustable by modifying the gas shutoff.

Looking at pictures (I've never had the opportunity to handle a Saiga in the metal) it looks like the front trunnion is designed with some kind of guide ribs to help the shotshell go into the breech straight. The bolt also has fingers going forward, supposedly for that purpose. A shotshell's flat front means it has little room for deviation from the barrel centerline, whereas a pointy rifle bullet just has to hit the hole somewhere.

Again, I'd try it and see how things worked before over-planning things. Put a mark on the top of a shell with a felt tip, use that as a clock to see where the end of the shell hits the breech face. I can think of half a dozen ways to add guides or fillers to direct the cartridge if needed.
 
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#2 ·
A 410 saiga is little differant. The barrel is shrouded on the top over the bullet guide to feed the round. I have one Ill post some picks later.

Im planning on doing a 410 barrel possable for my switch barrel build. also now planing a smokeless powder muzzel loader barrel for it as well.

brass shotgun shells can be had and can be made rimless and would allow a standard bolt to be used if opend up to 308 win sizes. 444 marlin brass can be converted into
410,and even 30-06 brass can be converted into rimless 410. I sugessted a 410 SGFH type round with a protruding .45 rifle bullet here a about a year ago.
 
#3 ·
Building a parts kit into a pistol is legal.
I think the laws are different for shotguns, it would still be a short barrel shotgun requiring the tax stamp.

I'll have to look at my S410 and see if what your saying seems like it would be worth it or not.
 
#5 ·
I tried a 3" shell in a G3 mag. Fits fine. The M-14 mag, not so well - the lips don't go all the way to the back of the mag, and snag the rim, which then jams solid. The lips need to be extended to the back, or trimmed forward at an angle.
 
#6 ·
Building a parts kit into a pistol is legal. Same should apply to building a kit into a shotgun.

Kits are back down to $119 right at the moment.
I think the laws are different for shotguns, it would still be a short barrel shotgun requiring the tax stamp.

I'll have to look at my S410 and see if what your saying seems like it would be worth it or not.
I do not believe he has plans to build a shotgun pistol.

He was just remarking that if it's legal to make a pistol from an AK kit, it should be legal to turn an AK kit into a shotgun (which it is, so long as the NFA laws are followed).
 
#11 ·
I do not believe he has plans to build a shotgun pistol.
Between this, and seeing the latest Taurus Judge in a SHOT show article that's chambered for .45LC, .454 Casull & .410.. this got me to thinking..

if you started with a flat (or Pistol reciever, for that matter), and put on a .45 barrel chambered for .45LC or .454 Casull & reamed it out as required for a .410 shell- then you could have a 10" barrel or so, that could do .410 rounds similar to a Judge, but in a rifled barrel, so it's legally a pistol... it wouldn't pattern worth a damn as a shotgun, but it would be more functional than the Judge..

you could put an adjustable gas system on it, similar to the Saiga with Gasfixr plug.. maybe with different mags, you could run .45LC or .454 Casull through it, too (maybe go for this 1st, then the .410 is an afterthought?)... what about the next level- .460 S&W Magnum?
 
#7 ·
I was assuming a legal-length 18" shotgun barrel,
When I saw this I read that sentence with the "pistol" comment again and now notice what you ment. Just making sure you stay out of trouble LOL

Yeah it's a shame those SureFire mags are so expensive, they have 10 & 15 rounders.
 
#8 ·
the bolt is long in the head like a 308 with a weird ejector hole more like a AK 74.
' the barrel has protrusions/shroud/bullett guide/feed ramp out past the breach aproximently 3/4" above the it and about 3/8" below it and slightly to the right hand side.

the bottom of the carrer is shaped differantly were it slides over round as well. the bolt is small stem btw.
the gun is laid out like a 308 with the longer bolt and breach moved ahead.

The factory mag is a single stack and is designed to kick the round up at a very high angle into the protruding shroud and then it is guided back down into the lower guide and into the chamber. My mag is a 3" Id like to have some of the 2.5" but there harder to find.

here is some pics.

If I was going to do it id build it like a standard AK and move the mag well back Id use a single stack mag possably a G3 with spacers in it Id replicate the barrel shrouds as well. Id also consider a 2.5" shell in a custom mag as well to allow more trigger guard area. there are more brass cases out there in 2.5 as well and they can be made from 444 marlin as its about 2.5" long. std ammo is cheaper as well in 2.5 also .

I have considerd the barrel shroud on my 444 Marlin build as well.

these 410 guns have been converted to 444 marlin in the past but they would not feed well with a stock mag. there was also a nice 500 S&W built on a 410 sagia.

Honestly there still reasonably priced and can be found used. so if I wasent trying to da swith barrel build and thought it was cool to have a SG barrel as well Id just by one .

I paid $175 for mine used at a gun shop not to long ago. the Factory trigger with the teater toter transfer bar is much much better than my 308 sagia and i have never understood why they didnt use the same setup in the 308.

Yea its dirty I havent shot it much at its kind of just a toy cant hunt deer in my state with 410 unfortunatly or Is build a 3.5" rifled barrel and use SGFH type shells in the SG zones and a little small for phesants ect and I have better shotguns for that any way.
 

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#9 ·
Hmm. If I'm figuring it right, the Saiga mag tilts the shell sharply up at the front, where it touches the top barrel extension? Then it just rides the extension right into the breech?

I guess that's easier than trying to guide a flat-nosed shell into a small hole.

Hmm, looks like the ordinary AKM trunnion rivet pattern instead of the inline pattern of the Saiga-12.

That U-shaped(?) shell guide(?) looks like it's held in place with a small rivet on the right side.
 
#10 ·
Hmm. If I'm figuring it right, the Saiga mag tilts the shell sharply up at the front, where it touches the top barrel extension? Then it just rides the extension right into the breech?

I think it goes up and then comes back down i a straight position and is guided by the lower guide,

Hmm, looks like the ordinary AKM trunnion rivet pattern instead of the inline pattern of the Saiga-12.
pretty close the LH side has a extra rivet that works as a mag stabelizer. there is also some differances in the trunion were the extra long extractor rotaates against the trunion. the extractor rotates all the was from the upper shroud to the side of the trunion

That U-shaped(?) shell guide(?) looks like it's held in place with a small rivet on the right side.
NOPE
It as well as the upper shroud are part of the barrrel. the breach is recessed so to copy this barrel you will have to bore in about 3/4" mill out the areas around the shrouds and then chamber the barrel in deep. this is also going to require a 22mm (i think its 22 mm) od on your barrel blank. it might be possable to make a sleave to do this on a low pressure 410 round. and still use the thiner 410 blanks. I looked at doing a rifled barrel for a 410 slug a while back and there is more than meets the eye here.
 
#12 ·
I thought about a rifled barreld pistol and rifle that used 410 cases with a protruding bullet. I started a thread on it a year or so ago. its doable but a 410 rifled pistol shooting shot would be next to worthless except in a very close quarters situation. IMOO. it would likely not be very accurate in 454 lc or Casull with all the free bore and chamber issues to make it accept the 410 shell. a 444 marlin pistol would be better and you could load shot into those cases if you had the desire to have a SG round. 444 marlin is almost 2.5 long so you could nrarly equal a 2.5" 410 round.

Im still trying to get time and money to finish the 444????? project.

Im planing on a 3" chamber 410 barrel on my switch barrel build it would be pretty easy once the bugs are worked out to make a identical barrel except rifled and run .44 or 45 bullets protruding from a brass case like a normal rifle round. check out the 12 guage SGFH in the general discussion. it would be like that but a mini SGFH. it would be pretty damm close to a 45-70 also in power as well. a rimless wild cat would be doable and then factory bolts opend up slightly would work. a rimless 410 shell can be made from 30-06 or simular brass BTW.

there is a poor mans big bore there some were and it would have the case capacity to blow the doors of the the 450 bushmaster, 458 SOCOm and likely the 50 beowulf.

I have been looking at 284 win brass as well as 7mm mag brass for a possable 450 wild cat Shotgun round as well it would fall between a 410 an a 28 guage. wads would be a issue possably the 458x2" is doable as well. the lug spacing gets pretty tight on the magnum brass and it wont clear. it would be doable on 308 Sagia however. Im not sure if .284 brass will clear the lugs but it might.

Its all doable with money and time.
 
#13 ·
I've been playing with some bits. An M-14 magazine can be slid up high enough in the trunnion for the shell to have an almost straight shot at the chamber. The bolt and bolt carrier vs. the mega-spring in the M-14 mag would beat the heck out of a shotshell, I bet. The M-14 spring is noticeably stiffer than a G3 spring. Never having seen a Saiga .410, I have no idea how stiff one of those springs is.

The M-14 follower has nothing much to keep it from tilting. The last shell would get flipped up in the front as the folower tilted. The next-to last and other shells have no problem, as far as I can see. Also, the rear of the lips need to be beveled to accept the rim, and the same for the back of the follower.

The G3 feed is nearly perfect, follower, lips, and all, but either the front of the mag or the trunnion need to be thinned for the trunnion to accept the magazine. Though this could be done, it would leave no room for a rivet, and maybe two threads on a screw. I know several .308 conversions have been done with G3 mags, but I think the M-14 might work out better.

I think some experimentation with magazine springs would be indicated; winding progressively weaker springs until feed problems manifested, then going back to a stiffer spring. You could wind music wire over a wooden form.

This sort of thing is why many early bolt-action rifles had weird double-lever arrangements under the follower - the spring(s) gained mechanical advantage as the follower went up, so as you fed or emptied the magazine, the pressure of the cartridges against the feed lips was fairly constant. With a straight coil spring, the pressure is drops linearly as the magazine empties. With the 50-round magazine on my MAC-11, the coil spring is so tight it sometimes double-feeds the top rounds, while the last few don't come up fast enough for the bolt to catch them on the rebound. Basically, the magazine doesn't work very well, though it's an OEM factory part.

The lever-follower mags went away because simple leaves or coils worked well enough for metallic cartridges, and because they were complex. Most of them only handled five cartridges; it would have required a stack of levers to feed more, which would have been a hassle.

Still, it would be nice for something like that to feed shotshells, so they wouldn't get all mashed out of shape if you put the gun away while loaded.
 
#14 ·
.410 is Go

Okay, the Voices wore me down. I ordered a Romanian underfolder kit and a 24" .410 barrel, originally for a Mossberg. I'll have to fill the dovetail on the bottom that was to hold the forend.

I made a deal with a friend for his Chinese underfolder FSB, so eventually I should have a double underfolder .410. It doesn't have a bayonet, but I should be able to score one eventually.

I could justify it as a "close quarters weapon", but really, I'm doing it because it should look cool when it's done...
 
#15 ·
I have been thinking more about a shot gun barrel for my switch barrel build.
a rimless smooth bore version could easly be made using straightend out 30-06 cases they would come out to 2.5".

a standard bolt could be opened slightly and used as is. a 308 length mag would work. it would have to head space on the case mouth but other than that it would work and you would not need a 410 bolt. Im thinking I could run the same bolt as my rifle barrels will use.

HMMMM is a rimless shotgun shell legaly considered shot gun shell??????

a magnum case could be made into a .500 guage possable. A wildcat AK shot gun would be kind of cool. a .460 weaterby mag case would could make a pretty cool aprox
.550 shot gun .

I have been saring at a 28 guage shell all day trying to figure a way to get one to work.
a rifled 28 guage barrel would make a serious big bore with a shot gun from hell protruding slug. Im pretty sure they make 28 guage brass shells. might be able to rebate the rim to fit a standard bolt a little better. even in a smooth bore a 28g would be a hell of a lot more use full on birds game and defense with shot. a 2" WSM case would make a pretty potent shot gun shell as well. It may be a way to possably have a over .50 cal with a rifled barrel an not be a destructive device.

are there any laws that say a shot gun shell has to have a rim to be classifed as a shot gun??
 
#16 ·
thinking about this a little more using brass cases some pretty hot 410 shells could be loaded for the 410 sagia. 3" brass shells can be made I have a 3"Saiga. Id like to find some 2.5" mags for it.

here is a link on making your own shells from 444 marlin, 303 british and the 9.3x74

Reloading .410 Bore Shotshells

to bad I cant hunt deer in my state with a 410 a rifled barreld 45,000 Psi 410 slug would be sweet and shoot flat.
 
#17 ·
#19 ·
Im looking at the rimless set up really hard, 30-06 brass is pretty cheap and it can be blown out easly. a rimless smooth bore would make a nifty rabbit, bird gun and a extra barrel on the switch barrel would be easy. the rimless would make it easy to make a mag feed. a 308 mag wont work due the the ribs or reduction in width were the round necks down. but a rectangular box that mimiced the out side dimensins of say a g3 would be easy.

the 9.3x74 brass would make nice 3" type rounds.

I shoot sporting clays ocasionaly and they give extra points for sub guages like 20, 28 410. the 410 gets extra points. a 3" magnum high pressure 40,000 PSI load might really be an advantage. it would really piss of the traditionalists if I showed up with a 410 or 28 guage super magnum auto loader. I was considering brass shells as they allow more shot and can be longer due tio the grimp dont have to clear the barrel on extraction.
I won a shoot there last year shooting a $75 20g remington A5 style auto loader I got at a garage sale with a poly choke and pissed off some guys with $10,000 shotguns. LOL

I have been keeping my eye out for some 303 brass. I really need 3" shells unless I buy 2.5 mags for my Sagia 410.

I have been studying the shrouded barrel that the 410 sagia uses and it should not be that hard If I had a 410 reamer.

I bet a 45,000 PSI rifled slug might shoot pretty good out a smooth bore.
 
#20 ·
I ordered a Romy underfolder flat from AK-Builder for $35, and went ahead and got a 2XTM flat for $30 for the other build.

I need an FAL magazine to compare to the G3 and M-14 mags, but it will have to wait until I find one somewhere where I can combine shipping with some other stuff.
 
#21 ·
none of the 308 mags are going likely work for a 410 at they are designed with ribs or get narrower in the front to properly hold a necked down 308 round.

I stuck some 410 shells in a fal mag and it not a very good solution.

Im going to be using G3mags on my switch barrel build and i likely will just bend up a square non ribbed box that will take a g3 spring. a double stack 410 may be tough but not imposable if they can get 7.62x54r to feed then it can likely be dont for the 410.

Im likely going to go rimless and avoid those problems and be able to use the G3 follower.

as single stack would be a easier way to go. orpossably just use Sagia mags but there way to pricy IMOO.

I think you really better think about buttin the upper shroud on the barrel to gide the round. it coing to be pretty tough to feed a flat shell into a hole that is only a few thousands bigger with just a bullet guide.

You might be able to press on a shroud onto the barrel by reducing the part that sticks through the reciver and then add the shrouds/ guides that wayif your working with a prechamberd barrel.

I have like 15 barrels to build before I worry about a shotgun barrel. then Im going to do a smokeless powder 458 cal muzzle loader barrel for it as well :) A 60,000 psi 458 cal smoke less powder muzzle loading ak will be that badest AK round yet at least for one shot. Oh yea they allow muzzel loader in my pistol/ shot gun zone. :)
 
#23 ·
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From the picture it looks like the Mossberg barrel has an extension built onto it already.
Interesting got a link by chance or a picture?? that would make it a lot easier to build.

I whave been wondering if the ribs ON a G3 mag could be hammered flat some how and the the mag modded for a 410 round. Its worth a couple bucks to try.
 
#24 ·
I'll take a picture when the barrels come in. (I ordered one for the AK, one for the SMLE)

I'm not sure you could press the ribs out without warping the magazine. You might take a cut-off wheel and cut a slot down the indent to give the metal some place to go. You could weld it up, or if you make the slot neat, and you could just leave it open to tell how much ammo you had left.

The front follower stops need to be trimmed back or re-angled; they catch on the fluted plastic of the cases.
 
#25 ·
yea the stops Can be reworked. the slots are not a bad idea Ind I had considerd it.

a box like the mag could be done and if possable the upper part of the mag removed and add to the home made box. slots can be covered but likely would not need to be and they dont have to go clear to the bottom. Im going to add a feed lip/edge on them for use in my switch barrel build and not use a bullet giide so mags can be made for differant caliburs and the trunion wont need to have ta bullet gude changed. it also will hopefully allow me to move the mag forward slightly and gain some trigger clearanc guard clearance.

I think if the trunion was slid a about a 1/8 ahead or maybe more the hammer would still hit the pin fine and if i could get the mag slightly ahead I might be able to gain back the 1/4" you loose in a 308 type conversion.

If you went with 2.5" 410 shells you could almost use a normal length mag well as there really only about 2 3/8" long. the chamber is longer to allow th crimp to unroll. for example a 3" remington shell is really only 2 5/8" long. 410 will have a 2.5" or 3" chamber but the shells are much shorter.

I dont have a 2.5' shell to measure handy but they might fit a 223 mag with some mods single stack. if you relaod you can make plasic oned shorter with some mods to the die.

A 2 3/16 APROX actual length shell could be used on a standerd reciver easly and likely so could a standard 2.5" shell with a couple sweaks like moving the trigger guard back slightly and possably notching the center support.

I think a 223 length switch barrel build would be super easy on a Sagia 223 or 7.62x39 as the bullet guide could be built into the mag and the shroud could be made inot the barrel. it would be a cool addition.

I got to get this switch barrel idea to completion.
 
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