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.357 Maximum Rimless

7K views 26 replies 5 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 ·
Elsewhere 1biggun mentioned his idea for a wildcat on a blown-out 7.62x25 case. I suggested using a .223 case:

http://www.gunco.net/forums/f108/9x23-9mm-largo-tokarev-56302/

There's a thread on Accurate Reloading about a ".357 Maximum Rimless." Actually, there are several if you use their search function; sometimes it's called ".35 Maximum" though.

357 Maximum Rimless with a pic - Topic Powered by Social Strata

I snagged a picture from the thread.

The .223's nominal diameter is only .003" less than the .357 at the base; once-fired brass would be within the usual SAAMI diametral tolerance.

Now, the standard 7.62 AK bolt face will accept a rimmed .357 Maximum perfectly, but you'd have to make up a magazine from scratch, or slice'n'dice a Desert Eagle or Coonan .357 Magnum magazine. The Rimless would need a .223 bolt, but it should feed from a 5.56 or 5.56 mag. Being a straight case, the cartridges should just slide as necessary to line up in the curved magazine.

Numrich has .357 Magnum rifle barrels for $19.95, or did last year anyway.

I don't know if there's a standard straight machine-tool reamer available in the right size, but you can rent reamers. Theoretically you could use a .38 or .357 Magnum reamer, but you'd have to find one that didn't also cut the counterbore for the rim.

FYI
 

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#2 ·
it would be a pretty anemic round in a rifle calibur IMOO Not enough case capicity for such a heavy bullet. You could likely get 1900 FPS or more with it however ( just a guess) If I was going to build a 9mm rifle round Id look more AT HCpookies 9x39. Or for a real high power round just build a 35 remington or a 258 win. It might make a good wisper type round but so will a normal 9mmx19.

Theoretically you could use a .38 or .357 Magnum reamer, but you'd have to find one that didn't also cut the counterbore for the rim.
HMMMM I bet it would work. you have to chamfer a AK barrel any way so the small amount of are were the rim would go rrally would not be a issue. hell the extractor cut on a AK barrel goes close to 50% of the way around the chamber and there is no case bulge from that.

I just not sure what the round would offer that a 7.62 x39 wont do or. I **** that it uses 223 brass but I dnt like that it has very little taper an would have to head space off the case mouth.

If you made it 357 length you could use 357 dies. if the Ods are close enough.


now if you could find a pistol to fire it that might be differant.

I am looking at the 223 case for a a 9x23 win clone or possably a 9x25 or .38x25 wild cat for use in my m70 Tokerov. Its been done before. I like the idea of a 9x25 round it would be a good round for a AK as well but im not sure what it would give you over whats already out there.
 
#3 ·
I guess I don't understand where you were going with your idea of opening up 7.62x25 to 9x25. It seems like a lot of work unless you can locate some Boxer primed brass x25.

You could do the same thing by cutting off a .223 to 25mm and stuffing a 9mm bullet into it, and you'd have something reloadable.

The .357 Rimless link was to show that something similar had successfully been done before. The only difference is case length.

Or am I missing the point entirely? It seems a shame to have a 45mm case and cut it all the way down to 25mm...
 
#4 ·
I form 7.62x25 from .223 brass, so I also don't see the difference. The case head is slightly smaller on the .223 than the 7.62x25, but the .223 brass works fine in my CZ52.
 
#5 ·
I guess I don't understand where you were going with your idea of opening up 7.62x25 to 9x25. It seems like a lot of work unless you can locate some Boxer primed brass x25.

You could do the same thing by cutting off a .223 to 25mm and stuffing a 9mm bullet into it, and you'd have something reloadable.
starline makes x25 brass and sellar & bellot sell boxer primed x25 finding brass is not a issue. I just figured that since i was going to have to reload any way I might as well take advantage of the 2mm extra mag capacity. as far as cutting down 45mm case to 25 who cares its cheap and heavy duty. guys have been making 9x23mm out of it for a long time even before winchester released the 9x23. If 23 mm win brass was easy to get then I would just use it. the whole point of my project is to get as much out a a converted tokerov pistol as possable. as far as opening up surplus brass its not going to be much work at all it takes me about 2 seconds to pull a bullet. If it can be expanded then its just a matter of dumping the powder and saving for future use adding new powder and seating the bullet. It really wont take much more time than if were seating a primer and loading a normal round. Ill have to see if I can expand it or not. If I can were talkin near or at 357 performance for around 15-20 cents a round VS about a $1.00 for reall 23x9mm stuff. I really cant afford to shoot a pistol for fun unless its cheap and reloadable. ill be able to buy and convert a Tokarev for around $230 and it will give 357 like performance thats hard to beat even with a revolver. not to mention I think I can still shoot 9x19,largo, 9x23 and others.

I have seen the 9mm maximum before It really doent float my boat due to the small case capacity for rifle use. It would be a good close quarters round in a AK but It will not be good for much over 200 yards. It would be cheap to reloadso it might be a fun gun to have. I can always add it to the switch barrel list LOL.
 
#7 ·
Cut'em (.223 case) down to slightly too long. I use a tubing cutter.

Run them through a 7.62x2 FL resizing die.

Trim to OAL.

Skim off excess outer diameter with Forster to match spec.

Load and shoot. The brass case walls are slightly thicker than 7.62x25, so charge with slightly less powder.

An easy caliber conversion.
 
#9 ·
yea I bought a few tokarev pistols from SOG and one of them im going to customize.

I think a 9mm version of the 458 socom or the 460 Big bore or the 50 beowulf or just a cut down 30-06 case necked down would be a good round. take the 444???? idea and neck it down to 35cal or 9mm and you would have a pretty decent round much better round..

I have plane Or at least the idea to take the 444????? case and neck it down to 41 but cal but going to 9mm or 357 or 35 rifle cal is a good idea also. it would really be just a .35x1.5 Barnes and it has been done before in rifles. I dont know of any AK or ARs however but i would not be suprised if there was a AR that has been done.

the 30x1.5 is a good round for the AK. its basicaly just a early version of the 30 benchreast round but made from normal 30-06 brass with a big primer flash hole. some day if I ever find the dies and reamer cheap Imm going to build one.
 
#10 ·
ok I will admit that I have read this post x3, with that said I was thinking ( not good for me) what if one used a x39 case and opend it up to take a .45? the case would not need a taper like on the .357 max. the base (x39) is close to a .45ACP, case cap for x39 is 33.45Gr, .45 ACP 27.67Gr. yes a .45 long colt would get the same type of load/ performace, but no semi auto and still could use x39 mags. might make a good brush gun. muttman
 
#11 ·
You are sick, sick, sick...

[gets out calipers]

Hmm, the base diameter of the x39 is .44". No .45 for you. But .44 bullets are .429"!

1biggun's ".44???" would be a .308-length cartridge. But a .44 Mutt would feed through an ordinary AK action, bolt and all.

Might be worth thinking about.
 
#16 ·
You are sick, sick, sick...

[gets out calipers]

Hmm, the base diameter of the x39 is .44". No .45 for you. But .44 bullets are .429"!

1biggun's ".44???" would be a .308-length cartridge. But a .44 Mutt would feed through an ordinary AK action, bolt and all.

Might be worth thinking about.
ok you got me on that one, on vacation right now. what if a .308 case was used? I read some ware that a .308 case would be cut down to make a .45 case.
biggun,
what Im thiking is not go thrue the steps that hc pooike did, and get a big bore gun yes I could make a .50 but whant to keep it in line with my .45acp for reloading.
muttman
 
#12 ·
what if one used a x39 case and opend it up to take a .45? the case would not need a taper like on the .357 max. the base (x39) is close to a .45ACP, case cap for x39 is 33.45Gr, .45 ACP 27.67Gr. yes a .45 long colt would get the same type of load/ performace, but no semi auto and still could use x39 mags. might make a good brush gun. muttman
your not going to be able to use a x39 case for a 45 wild cat the od is to small. even a 308 win case would need to be reamed if possable at all. trust me i looked at a .44 on a x39 case it wont happen.

for the record I was not the orignal guy to propose the 444??? I proposed a 444 marlin rimless made from 30-06 brass cut down then that idea was taken to make it fit into a AK length mag. I have made up the rounds and they can be shot I just need to finidsh the barrel and chamber it some how. here is the x39 a pair of the worlds first 444??? and a 444 BGR (BIG GUN RIMLESS)

Gunter original sugested cutting my 444 rimless down an I worked with him to come up with a way to form it and make it using 444 marlin dies.

http://www.gunco.net/forums/f244/44-37230/


1biggun's ".44???" would be a .308-length cartridge

WRONG!! THE 444??? THAT GUNTER AND I WORKED ON WAS ALWAYS INTENDED TO FIT IN A AK OR AR MAG. AND WOULD LIKELY USE A 5.56 OR 5.54 MAG. I WAS PLANING ON USING THE NARROW 5.56 ROMMY MAGS. SEE THE PICTURES.

MY 444 RIMLESS WOULD BE 308 LENGTH AND IT CAN BE FORMED WITH STANDARD 444 MARLIN DIES AN CUT DOWN 30006 BRASS OR BLOWN OUT AND CUT DOWN 308 LENGTH BRASS.
 

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#13 ·
A .41 might be doable on a x39 case and would be really good on a 444??? case or a 444 BGR ( rimless marlin) It is one I have wanted to do for a while.

the whole bigger is better is little bit to much IMOO. I dont see a .50 beowulf being much better than the same round necked down to .41 or 44 there both going to kill or destroy what ever they hit. the smaller bullet is not going to drop like a rock after 75 yarda and reach out further flatter. A 50 is freat but you need some case capacity or a way to run higher pressures to make it much better. I think a 41 or light 44 would be much more usefull.

on a differant note the 9mm magnum is a straight cased round and brass is avaliable as well as dies and would give simular performance as some of the other 9mm or 357 suggestions. especaly if loaded up in pressure for use in a strong AK action instead of a pistol.

9 mm caliber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt9mag.htm

Starline Brass 9mm Winchester Magnum - MidwayUSA
 
#17 ·
with a .430 bullet (44) there is only .010 differance in the case from the rim to the mouth so its basicaly straight. if you want to use a 45 csal bullet you are going to have to cut the case even shorter and then Inside turn the case to get the bullet to fit.

I chose to use cut down 30-06 brass on the 444??? because you cut it off just below the shoulder were if you use .308 length brass you ahve to cut it in the middle of the shoulder then expand or blow the shouder straight a lot more work and more wear and tear on the brass.

by going with a .430 bullet you save a lot of work.

If you want a .45 AK just buy a reamer in 450 bushmaster and buy the brass already made. its out there now. that would be a really simple way to go.
 
#18 ·
again if your building the rifle from scratch why be stuck with a AR length mag well?? its not much harder to just build the gun to take a .308 win length mag. then there are lots of choices. the 35 remington an 358 win come to mind. your going to want to relaod for almost any of these big bores so a 358 loaded a little lighter is going to be the best bet or 35 remington could likely be shot as is from the factory. I think a 41 cal based on a full length 308 or 358 win case blown ut would likely be damm near as effective as the 450 bush master and would shoot a lot flatter. I have been looking for barrel for such a build.

the 35 remington was a very popular deer rifle for many years and still is used toay.
 
#20 ·
from what I recall and there is a thread here some were the 35 remington is loaded pretty light by todays standards. Id look close at the 358 win also if you reload as it can use 308 brass expanded out (i think)

the only load in my win book on my desk shows a 35 rem loaded with a 200 gr sp using 39 Grs of 748 making 2130 at only 33,000 CUP that is really light IMOO. but its slinging a 200 grain bullet almost as fast a 125 gr 7.62x39 load. yea it will work on deer and anything else it hits. the hottest load in my Lyman book is 35,000 cup

the 358 win on the other hand is hotter it shows a 200 grain bullet doing 2659 FPS but at a much higher 49,000 CUP as a MAX load how ever the starting load for that same powder and bullet combo is doing 24,000 FPS at only 35,000 CUP. That boys is a 75 grain heavier bullet going the same speed as a AK round at aprox 10,000 CUP less chamber pressure. factor in the formula for the bolt thrust being increassed due to the larger round and its likely still less than a AK round.
 
#22 ·
the only load in my win book on my desk shows a 35 rem loaded with a 200 gr sp using 39 Grs of 748 making 2130 at only 33,000 CUP that is really light IMOO. but its slinging a 200 grain bullet almost as fast a 125 gr 7.62x39 load.
That's what grabbed my attention when I first saw it. The .35 Remington is one of those cartridges which seems to get a lot of oomph for not much pressure.

I'd never even heard of the .35 Remington until I found out both Molot and Izhmash made civilian-market AKs chambered in it. Some Russkies spent some time in the loading manuals...
 
#24 ·
the reamer cuts the bullet free bore and every thing else generaly at one time. you can buy reamers that dont cut the neck an throat and then use seperate reamers to fit the chamber to certain ammo. how ever it generaly a matter of turnng a barrel really slow with lots of lube and feeding a reamer in.

head space is set by reaming in the correct amount untill the bolt closes properly.

many times a barrel is only partialy reamed ( short chamberd ) and then the barrel is installed in the action and then the reamer is spun by hand ( hand reamed) untill the bolt able to just close on a go guage. This is a very simplified explination.
 
#25 ·
That's what grabbed my attention when I first saw it. The .35 Remington is one of those cartridges which seems to get a lot of oomph for not much pressure.

I'd never even heard of the .35 Remington until I found out both Molot and Izhmash made civilian-market AKs chambered in it. Some Russkies spent some time in the loading manuals...
I suspect it was more due to that fact that many countries dont allow fire arms in a military calibu than what the load books show. Is the 35 remington you saw built on a 3 lug trunion or a two? with there ability to make the 308 saiga and the standard AK for almost the cost to build I doubt that the pressure was a concern.

I dont dislike the 35 rem I just think the 358 is a better more modern less expensive to reload round that will also greatly out perform the 35 rem if loaded to higher pressures in a stonger action. If I had a 35 remington reamer id likely build one. I have a 358 reamer and I hand load so ill just do a 358 and load it to around 44,000 PSI or so.

loaded to the same pressures and bullets I doubt there is much of a real world differance in the two especialy at lower pressures with the lighter side of the bullets. I like to be able to use 7.62x51 brass in a lot of my stuff when possable and it can be used for both but the 358 is a one pass froming if done with a tapered expander ( so I have been told). Im all for a 35 rem and if i had brass or another gun or a reamer Id build one in a heart beat. Im thinking a .358 14" pistol would be a good short range deer killer and might be this years hunting gun.
 
#26 · (Edited)
bg,
I hear ya on the the .358, but I have a bud that has a ,35 rem. so this might be a better way for me to go at this point. he will/said he would be bringing me a empty case to eye ball. the good news for me is he does not reload so I think I might have a small supply of brass to work from. muttman

change II,
after looking over 35 rem brass cost it would be mo better money spent and a ready supply of .308 brass to form .358 brass with.
 
#27 ·
YEA IF IT CAN BE MADE FROM SURPLUSS 7.62 NATO BRASS ITS HARD NOT TO CONSIDER IT IN A AUTO LOADER WERE DUMPING A 30 ROUND MAG IS NORMAL.

THE REMINGTON CAN BE MADE FROM 308 BRASS BUT ITS MUCH MORE WORK.

UNLESS YOUR RICH HANDLOADING IS A MUST FOR MOST OF THE HIGH POWER CONVERSION EXCEPT POSSABLY A 308, 8MM, X54R,. i CANT EVEN AFFORD TO SHOOT THE CHEAPEST 243 ANY MORE FOR FUN.
 
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