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Thread: Contemplating New Build: 22-250, .260 Rem., or 6.5 Grendel

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    Default Contemplating New Build: 22-250, .260 Rem., or 6.5 Grendel

    I would really like to do a 22-250 build, as I already have a bolt action 22-250 and wouldn't have to buy another caliber of ammo.

    I know that 1biggun has mentioned the better performance and wider availability of ammo choices for the .260 Remington.

    Then you have the interesting aspects of the 6.5 Grendel, being based on a 7.62x39 case with little to no taper.

    I'm trying to decide on which one would make the most sense to build, given ammo availability, as well as potential magazine candidates, and what types and mods would need to be used for each round with respect to the mags. Whatcha think about the pros and cons of each?
    Enforcement, NOT Amnesty!!!!!!

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    What is you main goal?? the 22-250 in a factory load can be very hot like 60,000 PSI or more. however with that said it is a awsome round for long range varmints. it is a barrel burner so its not some thing you want to shot 1000.s of rounds through rapid fire. unless you want to reload the 22-250 to a lighter load Id be hesitant to use a standard AK bolt. I have plans to do a 22-250 on a standrd AK bolt with a m70 trunion but Im going with a fast twist barrel and plan on loading it light. The idea is to get more than 223 speeds with a 80+ grain bullet and over come the loaded length issues you have a AK/AR length mag well And by loading it light hope to avoid some of the barrel burning issues that a hot fast twist 22-250 have. i alkso have a 22 cheetah reamer that is a 308 necked down for really cooking barrels fast LOl. Im shooting for a litttel mre than 223 can offer with a heavy bullet.

    The 260 down loaded is a good choice. as is any other 308 win based round. If your hunting they allow heavier bullets and more power wiht faster speeds. if your shooting paper or plinking then a grendal might be a simpler build and cheaper IF there is everry any cheap wolf steel ammo. 7.62 brass can be used to make 260.

    another choice that is a good idea is a 243 win its between a 260 and a 22-250 it will shoot 58 grain bullets at around 3800 fps and 100 grain or heavier at around 2800 Fps it will work on varmints to deer. bras and ammo is everywere. the 115 bullets will rival some of the 6.5 offerings for BC. Im currently working on a light weight 243 for a youth hunting rifle. it uses a standard AK Bolt and trunion ( bolt opened up) Ill load it to the light side of the book. If your shooting under 500 yards a 243 will likel

    if you planing on using factory ammo in a 22-250 ID recomed you start with a 308 Sagia it should handel it. just keep in mind 22-250 is really hot it likely the hottest non magnum rifle round out there.

    The main benefit of the 260 over the 243 and 308 is the higher BC of the long heavy bullets it will give you more at longer ranges. Im nbot sure you will be shooting a AK in any calibure at over 500 yards but if you are then its a good choice.

    also dont forget there 6.5 creedmore it has a lower chamber pressure is said to be more effeciant than the 260 and allows the bullet to be fully seatd out in a 308 length mag or action. hornady makes reasonably priced brass and I think it can be formed from 308 brass as well ( dont quote me) it is gaining in popularity with the ar 10 crowd aswell as target shooters with bolt actions. It might be a better choice than the 260 remington especaily down the road. factory ammo is avaliable from hornady also and possably others.

    IF THRE WERE 3 LUG BOLTS AND TRUNIONS AVALAIBLE THIS WOULD BE A LOT MORE FUN AND COST EFFECTIVE.

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    make that 65,000 PSI

    SAAMI pressures

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    There was a discussion a year or two ago about doing a short-chamber job, -.060" or so, to make a semi-wildcat where handloaded cartridges would chamber and factory .22-250s wouldn't let the bolt close.

    pressure: (PSI)

    7.62x39 - 45,000 (SAAMI)
    7.62x54R - 57,000 (Wikipedia)
    .30-06 - 60,000 (SAAMI commercial) (Saiga, Molot)
    .308 - 62,000 (SAAMI commercial) (Valmet, Galil, others)
    .22-250 - 65,000 (SAAMI)


    I *just happen* to have a PSL trunnion, an AKM trunnion, and a .22-250 cartridge by the side of my keyboard. I've thought about this conversion before. If I wasn't full-up with unfinished projects at the moment, I might well do it myself.

    If you handload your own ammo, I'd say jump on it.

    Now let's talk failure mode: In an ordinary bolt-action rifle in an overload situation (obstructed barrel is common), it's rare for the bolt lugs to shear. Normally, the barrel splits at the chamber, sometimes taking the receiver ring with it.

    In these designs the receiver lugs are wrapped in a ring of steel. In the AK, they're hanging off "wings" behind what would be the receiver ring in a conventional design. They have reasonable area, but there's not much to prevent the "wings" from spreading and releasing the bolt. The PSL and Yugo added extra metal here, which is good.

    A '98 Mauser was usually chambered in cartridges of 45,000 PSI or so. They are regularly rechambered in .308 and .22-250 with no issues, and people who have purchased the new inexpensive piezo pressure sensors have reported some of the "hot" loads of yesteryear run over 70,000 PSI. .. but the Kalashknikov simply isn't as strong of a design.

    Worst case, the trunnion or bolt fails. We know from examples of out-of-battery discharges that the bolt carrier gets slammed back into the rear trunnion, the top cover is blown off, and the recoil spring and minor internal bits go flying off into neverland. The shooter gets a trip to the car wash.

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Worst case, the trunnion or bolt fails. We know from examples of out-of-battery discharges that the bolt carrier gets slammed back into the rear trunnion, the top cover is blown off, and the recoil spring and minor internal bits go flying off into neverland. The shooter gets a trip to the car wash
    hmmmm THAT MIGHT BE A LITTLE MORE SEVRE WITH A 20,000 psi INCREASE IN PRESSURE OVER THE X39 NOT TO MENTION THE BOLT THRUST IS CONSDERABLY INCREASED DUE TO THE LARGER CASE HEAD ID. YOUR TALKING ABOUT A 4O% OR SO INCREASE (GUESSING) IN CHAMBER PRESSURE AND LIKELY A 70% INCREASE (GUESSING) OR SO IN BOLT THRUST. ID EXPECT A LITTLE MORE THAN A TRIP TO THE CARE WASH IF LUG EVER FAILED AND THE YOU HAVE A FULL PRESSURE DISCHARGE VS A DICHARGE IN A OUT OF BATTERY SITUATION WERE FULL CHAMBER PRESSURES MIGHT NOT BE REACHED. SOME OF THE VIDEO iVE SEEN OF A AK LETTING GO ARE PRETTY VIOLENT AND COULD HAVE BEEN VERY VERY BAD.

    AGAIN IF YOU DO THIS LOAD LIGHT IS MY ADVICE.

    NOW THE QUESTION IS WHAT WILL YOU GAIN BY LOADING LIGHT OVER A 223 LOADED TO MAX???? IS IT ENOUGH TO WARRENT THE WORK? IMOO THERE ARE GAINS TO BE MADE IN VELOCITY IF A LONGER BARREL IS USED AND ALSO YOU WILL BE ABLE TO SEAT BULLETS FULLY OUT ESPECIALY HEAVY ONES.

    KEEP IN MIND THAT STARTING LOADS FOR A 22-250 WITH A 55 GRAIN BULLET ARE ABOUT THE SAME AS MAXIMUM LOADED 223 LOADS ABOUT 33,000 FPS SO UNLESS YOU BUMP THE PRESSURES UP IN THE 22-250 SOME THERE ARE NO REAL GAINS.

    WITH A 55 GRAIN BULLET THERE IS ONLY AROUND 300 FPS DIFFERANCE BETWEEN A MAX 223 LOAD AN A MAX 22-250 LOAD. SO WHEN YOU BACK OFF ON THE 22-250 YOU DONT GAIN MUCH. THE AMMO COST IS A LOT MORE AND BARREL LIFE GOES DOWN A LOT.

    IM DOING IT TO SEAT OUT 80 GRAIN OR HEAVIER HIGH BC BULLETS WERE THEY BELONG. I CAN DO MUCH THE SAME THING WITH A 223 AND A LONGER MAG WELL AN LONGER THROAT IN THE CHAMBER. THE 22-250 SHOULD SHOW SOME ADVANTAGES WITH HEAVIER BULLETS EVEN AT REDUCED PRESSURES, MUCH LIKE A 30-06 WILL OUT DO A 308 WITH HEAVER BULLETS ( MY THEORY ANY WAY)


    NOW THE ADVANTAGES OF A 260 OVER A GRENDAL ARE MUCH BETTER. I HAVE A THREAD ON THE SUBJECT HERE SOME WERE. THE 260 CAN SHOOT A 160 GRAIN BULLET YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE DOING THAT WITH A GRENDAL AS THE BULLET WILL BE SEATED TO FAR BACK. SAME WITH A 140 GRAIN TO A POINT.

    THE 260 REMINGTON LOADED MAX WILL SHOOT A 160 GRAIN BULLET FASTER (2595 FPS) THAN A GRENDELL CAN SHOOT A 123 GRAIN BULLET OUT OF A 24" BARREL ( 2508 FPS) THIS IS A BIG DEAL I DONT CARE WHO MUCH BS THE AR CROWD AND THE GRENDEL FORUM BLOW UP YOUR ASS. THE 260 WILL SHOOT THE GRENDELS 123GR WONDER BULLET AROUND 400 FPS SECOND FASTER THAT IS DAMM NEAR DOUBLE THE DIFFERNCE OF SOME MAGNUM ROUNDS VS STANDARD RIFLE ROUNDS. REGARDLESS OF HOW THE GRENDEL USES ITS POWDER MORE EFFECIANTLY AND HOW MUCH LESS IT RECOLS AND HOW WELL IT WILL PUT A HOLE IN PAPER AT LONG RANGE IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING IN THE SAME CLASS AS THE 260 REM ESPECIALY FOR HUNTING WERE YOU HAVE TO KILL SOMETHING.

    STARTING LOADS FOR THE 260 ARE AROUND 300 FPS FASTER THAN THE GRENDAL LOADED AT MAX. THIS IS WHY I FEEL A 260 OR 243 ARE BETTER LOADED LIGHT THAN A SHORT MAG RESTRICTED AR/AK ROUND.

    A 120 GR 260 BULLET LOADED AT 51,000 PSI USING WIN 760 POWDER WILL MAKE 2802 FPS THAT IS 300 FPS FASTER THAN A MAX LOADED 120 GRAIN GRENDAL AT 49,000 psi ACCORDING TO HODGEN POWDERS LOAD DATA. EVEN IF THE 260 WAS BACKED OF MORE IN PRESSURE IT WILL STILL OUT DO THE GRENDEL. i DONT CARE HOW MUCH BS THE GRENDEL FORUM OR ALAXANDER AMRS SPEWS ITS NOT A FAIR FIGHT.

    WANT TO GO REALLY FAST THE 260 WILL

    THE AK IS NOT RESTRICTED TO A AR LENGTH MAG SO WHY STAY WITH A SHORT ROUND. IF YOU HAVE A AR15 THE GRENDAL IS GREAT BUT WERE NOT STUCK WITH THAT PLATFROM AND SHORT MAGWELL.

    A 308 SAIGA CAN BE HAD USED IN THE $450 RANGE $500 OR SO NEW, A BARREL CAN BE MADE FOR AROUND $100 IF YOU SPEND WELL OR BUY A TAKE OFF. THAT MEANS FOR THE PRICE OF A BARE BONES AR IN 223 YOU CAN SHOOT A 22-250, 243, 260, 7MM08, 308, 338-08, 358 WIN, ECT. AND YOU CAN LIKELY USE FULL POWER LOADS ON ALL OF THESE LOADS WITH A 308 SAIGA CONVERSION.

    A 243 BARREL NEW TAKE OFF CAN BE HAD ON GUN BROKER FOR AROUND $25 TURN IT TO A SAIGA PROFILE AND INSTALL IT. PRETTY CHEAP WAY TO SHOOT A BULLET AT AROUND 4000 FPS.
    Last edited by 1biggun; 11-27-2011 at 01:19 PM.

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    Not planning on handloading. Unfortunately I don't have the time or space.

    I just like building something besides the same old basic 47 or 74. I have built a few interesting one off's but I haven't tried for something with accuracy in mind. I figured that maybe I would try to build something that would be a tackdriver at 500+. Put some good optics on it, and have something different.
    Enforcement, NOT Amnesty!!!!!!

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    If you're starting with an AK47 kit, I'd go with 6.5 Grendel. If it's an AK-74 kit, .300 Whisper.

    The Whisper is an odd little round. SSK took down all their Whisper ballistics pages a while back, but there's still a lot of information on quarterbore.com and elsewhere.

    Basically, the Whisper uses a heavy bullet loping along just subsonic. Out where most supersonic bullets are dropping to subsoninc, it's still loping along without having lost much velocity. Drag is much higher at supersonic speed than subsonic, do there's not much to slow it down. Past the crossover point, it's carrying way more momentum to the target than a wimpy 124-grain AK bullet. And since it never goes through the transonic speed, accuracy is good.

    Downside, it has the classic "rainbow" trajectory like a .45-70. Modern shooters are accustomed to fast, flat-shooting cartridges and often don't like having to figure range and elevation.

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    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    If you're starting with an AK47 kit, I'd go with 6.5 Grendel. If it's an AK-74 kit, .300 Whisper.

    The Whisper is an odd little round. SSK took down all their Whisper ballistics pages a while back, but there's still a lot of information on quarterbore.com and elsewhere.

    Basically, the Whisper uses a heavy bullet loping along just subsonic. Out where most supersonic bullets are dropping to subsoninc, it's still loping along without having lost much velocity. Drag is much higher at supersonic speed than subsonic, do there's not much to slow it down. Past the crossover point, it's carrying way more momentum to the target than a wimpy 124-grain AK bullet. And since it never goes through the transonic speed, accuracy is good.
    THE 300 WHISPER IS ALMOST IF NOT IDENTICAL TO THE NEW 300 BLACKOUT THAT ALL THE AR CROWD IS TOTING AS THE NEW WONDER ROUND. IT IS A GOOD ROUND IT BASICALY WILL MIMIC THE 7.62X39 SLIGHTLY LESS POWERFULL DEPENDING WHAT YOU READ. THE MAIN ADVANTAGE OF IT IS IT CAN BE SET UP AS A SUBSONIC ROUND AND DO EVERY THING YOU STATED DO TO ITS SLIGHTLY SHORTER CASE. THE X39 CAN ALSO DO MUCH OF THAT. THE GOOD NEWS IS THE 300 BO AMMO IS AVALAIBLE FORM THE FACTORY AND ITS PRICED REASONABLE AT AAROUND THE SAME PRICE AS X39 BRASS COMMERCIAL.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Not planning on handloading. Unfortunately I don't have the time or space.
    THAT DOES LIMIT YOU CHOICES. GUYS HERE HAVE DONE 308,S AND 243,S ON FACTROY AMMO AN MILL SURPLUS 7.62. iM NOT SURE ITS A GREAT IDEA iM STILL ON THE FENCE AN i STARTED THE 308 CONVERSION THREAD HERE LIKE 5 YEARS AGO. I PERSONALY LIKE THE 300 SAVAGE ON A AK IT GIVES MUCH MORE THAN A X39 HAS LOWER PRESSURES AND DONT GIVE UPO TO MUCH TO A 308 WIN... THE BAD NEWS IS AMMO IS PRICY BUT NO MORE THAN A 260REM. OF COURSE IF YOU CAN FIND A DEAL ON A 308 SAIGA THEN THE SKY IS THE LIMIT. I CAN T IMAGINE TRYING TO DO MUCH LONG RANGE WITH A STANDARD AK PLATFORM IF YOU DONT RELOAD EXCEPT IN A 223 OR POSSABLY A GRENDAL. UNLESS YOUR REALLY RICH AND CAN AFFORD CUSTOM OR HIGH END AMMO.

    THE SUBSONIC 300 WISPER/BLACK OUT WILL BE GOOD IF YOU SHOOT A LOT A KNOWN RANGES AS YOU WONT BEE GUESSING ALL THE TIME.
    I HAVE SHOT SOME 168 GRAIN MATCH KINGS OUT TO OVER 400 YARDS IN A TARGET AK BUILD WITH A .308 BARREL (308X39) AND IT WILL GROUP PRETTY WELL ONCE YOU GET THE SCOPE DIALED IN BUT ADD ANOTHER 50 YARDS AND YOUR LOST AGAIN. BUT THE ROUND CAN SHOOT LONG RANGE AT KNOWN DISTANCES. JUSTLIKE A 30 BENCH REST OR 30 PPC CAN. ( AGAIN CUSTOM AMMO SORRY)

    IF YOU WANT ACCURACY PERHAPS A FAST TWIST 223 WITH A HEAVY BARREL WOULD BE THE TICKET. I SHOOT TO WELL OVER 400 YARDS A LOT AND IT WILL MAKE SHOOTS MUCH FURTHER THAN THAT BUT YOU DO START LOBBING THEM IN. SOMETHING LIKE MY VARMINT BUILD CAN BE DONE FOR UNDER $500 IF YOU SHOP AROUND FOR A GOOD TAKE OFF BARREL.

    I haven't tried for something with accuracy in mind. I figured that maybe I would try to build something that would be a tackdriver at 500+. Put some good optics on it, and have something different.
    __________________

    YOUR GOING TO WANT TO RELOAD IF YOUR GOING TO DO MUCH LONG RANGE SHOOTING OR YOUR GOING TO SPEND A FORTUNE FOR PREMIUM AMMO. 260 AMMO IS NOT CHEAP AT ALL AND THE FACTORY SELECTION IS NOT GREAT. A GRENDAL WOULD BE A BETTER BET IF YOU DONT HAND LOAD.

    AT ANY RATE FOR LONG RANGE YOU WILL WANT A HEAVY BARREL AND A OPTIC MOUNT THATS OFF THE RECIVER.

    ID STICK WITH A 223 WITH AT LEAST A 1-9 TWIST A 1-8 WOULD BE BETTER. SET IT UP WITH A CUSTOM MAG WELL AND MAG THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO SEAT THE BULLET OUT AND SHOOT THE HEAVY STUFF LIKE 75 AN 80 GRAIN THERE ARE A FEW COMPANY THAT LOAD THEM FROM THE FACTORY I THINK. OR YOU CAN ORDER AMMO FROM LOADERS ANY WAY YOU WANT. IF ITS A PAPER PUNCHER THE 223 DOES WELL IN COMPITION AT 500 YARDS. USE A 5.45 KIT AS THE BOLT WILL WORK AND GO FROM THERE.

    IF YOU NEED HELP WITH A BARREL LET ME KNOW. iM STARTING TO GET BACK INTO THE SHOP MORE AND MORE AGAIN.

    GOOD THREAD BTW. IT NICE TO SEE SOME OUT SIDE THE BOX THINKING.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
    THE 300 WHISPER IS ALMOST IF NOT IDENTICAL TO THE NEW 300 BLACKOUT THAT ALL THE AR CROWD IS TOTING AS THE NEW WONDER ROUND.
    Yep. SSK got pissy about other people doing "Whisper" cartridges, so there are several near-clones. Unfortunately, just like in some of the commercial Whisper loadings, most of the clones seem to have missed the point and load supersonic.

    When you do see subsonic ammo, it seems to be marketed to the suppressor guys, as some loaded-down squib load, which is the exact opposite of the original design. <sigh> Can't win for losing, sometimes.

    It's not a miracle cartridge, and it's not going to turn a .223 case into a .30 caliber, 500-yard sledgehammer.

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    Biggun's quote "ID STICK WITH A 223 WITH AT LEAST A 1-9 TWIST A 1-8 WOULD BE BETTER. SET IT UP WITH A CUSTOM MAG WELL AND MAG THAT WILL ALLOW YOU TO SEAT THE BULLET OUT AND SHOOT THE HEAVY STUFF LIKE 75 AN 80 GRAIN THERE ARE A FEW COMPANY THAT LOAD THEM FROM THE FACTORY I THINK. OR YOU CAN ORDER AMMO FROM LOADERS ANY WAY YOU WANT. IF ITS A PAPER PUNCHER THE 223 DOES WELL IN COMPITION AT 500 YARDS. USE A 5.45 KIT AS THE BOLT WILL WORK AND GO FROM THERE.

    IF YOU NEED HELP WITH A BARREL LET ME KNOW. iM STARTING TO GET BACK INTO THE SHOP MORE AND MORE AGAIN.

    GOOD THREAD BTW. IT NICE TO SEE SOME OUT SIDE THE BOX THINKING."

    That may be a good route, as I already have some Galil mags, and a supply of .223 for my M4. I was wanting to do a .223 AK build on a Bulgy 74 kit anyway. THis would be a good reason to do it.

    So, I would need to weld a rail from Brownell's on top of the RSB, for the optics??

    Thanks for the input guys. I really appreciate it. Kind of suprised that more folks aren't interesed. Oh well.
    Enforcement, NOT Amnesty!!!!!!

    "If they’re going to come here illegally, apply for & receive assistance through a corrupted Government agency encouraging this lawless behavior, work under the table & send billions of dollars each year back to their families in Mexico, while bleeding local economies dry, protest in our streets waving their Mexican flags DEMANDING rights, while I have to press ’1′ for English, then they need to be shipped back to where they came from!" -Chad Miller

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