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9mm ak from scratch

9K views 38 replies 12 participants last post by  Johnny 5.56 
#1 ·
i have been pondering this for sometime. i wanted to see if i can come up with an alternative to the typical bolt modifications. given i really handy with CAD, i have cycled thru a few iterations for a "turn key" solution.













my objective was to get the bolt and trunnion as simple of design as possible so it can be milled easily. i am trying to get some time on a friends 3d plotter for some working models and then to a cnc.
 
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#2 ·
nice. I propsed a scrath build a few years back ( likely for the x25 ) i went so far as to buy a end mill to do the bolt face and a few other bits of tooling. ther eis now reason a blow back could not be done with out a kit with a few original pieces like the dust cover, and other cheap essy to get original parts. t the whole build if you have a mill could be done for like $100 with no kit less if you are really reasorceful' I have always felt a blow back bolt/carrer assembly would sell if it was under $75. it could be one piece with a screw in guide rod/piston. the reciver could be a standard AK or a roll your own. when you make that trunion make a good place with some ,meat to screw a optics rail in place.

Your set up could be used for every thing from a 17 hmr on up to most any pistol calibur with just a few easy to obtain pieces. make the carrer so weight can be added or adjusted for various caliburs.
 
#3 ·
I always thought about this idea too because after seeing numerous threads on blowback conversions it just seemed ghetto to weld the bolt and carrier together and seemed like a waste of a perfectly good bolt, bolt carrier and trunnion that could be used on a rifle caliber project. the simplest way to do the extractor would probably be to drill a hole and use an uzi extractor. If you make a few sets of bolt and trunnion I might be interested in a set.
 
#4 ·
1bg thats the whole idea. the front rod is mainly to add mass for whatever caliber you choose. i still havent figured out the extractor yet. i am leaning toward something similar to whats on ar. i tried to keep the bolt and the trunnion very simple with everything being easy to cut on a basic mill.
 
#5 ·
seems like a extractor for common pistol was easy. ill find my old thread and link to it. i bought a extractor to use but never got the build off the ground. i bought the x25 reamer and every one wanted a barrel so i did barrels and never got my gun built then the ammo went away so i just never got to it.
 
#7 ·
cool thanks. i want to run a set on the 3d plotter. it will give plastic parts but its a good first run to see if there are any hidden snags. our structures lab just got a haas cnc. i am good friends with the lead tech and he says they can run a few "test" projects as a training exercise. they will not have it completely installed until mid january. this sort of pushed to finish these drawings. i have been playing around on diferennt models for over a year.
 
#9 ·
no when i was saving the cad models to jpegs i brain farted and deleted the rod. it looks just like the front section of a typical ak carrier minus the gas piston. i drew this as separate piece as a means of easing the build process. it is basically a cylinder that pins into the bolt.

although, a guide rod wouldnt be a bad route to take as long as i can maintain the bolt weight.
 
#10 · (Edited)
blackfetus,

did some rough math. will calc actual when i get back to the office.

from the Sub Machine Gun Designers Handbook

9mm bolt = 1.1-1.5lb

4130 steel weighs 0.283 lb./in³

required volume= 3.88-5in³

blowback ak bolt(approx)
l=3.55 w=1.25 h=1.25/2
design volume=3.32in³

aas the model sits now, it may have the weight to survive as a blowback guide rod build.
 
#13 ·
dk, get off my wavelength! damn i need to repair the hole in my tin foil hat. you were reading my mind. i started a magwell model before i left the office.

i want to do one in 22 as well. the new ruger 10/22 25 rounder is very solid.
 
#14 ·
Some of the Molot rifles used a squared-off top cover. You could cut and fold one, and weld the back after bending it down. Heck, provide some tabs on the back section and I bet you could use trigger guard rivets to hold it.
 
#15 ·
I considered a flat top dust cover that would secure into the trunion as a easy way to add a scopoe or rail. there is no need to be stuck with the AK dust cover here, it would also make it easier to get some weight into the carrier/bolt if needed. they could also be made for about 75 cents in a simple jig or on a break. there are a lot of ways to simplify this to reduce cost and the need for original parts.

I pistion. rod is nice but it sort of make doing a floating barrel build harder. i think a gude rod set up like seen in the supper short barrel builds woukd be a better set up as it would allow short builds. floating barrel builds and also would make a GB unnessacary removing weight. there is no need to copy a Gas gun and a orginal AK here. I lkie the idea of using the reciver as is because its cheap and easy and the trigger parts are damm near free as you will not likely need 922 stuff.

If i was designing a trunion to be milled on a cnc set up it would have material for a rail and a way to trun a gude rod back to the rear trunion. Id eleminate the need for a RSB completly id make the trunion so it had all of that included. Id loose the leaf sight compltely it simply will not be needed in a pistol round that will likelynever shoot past 200 yards simply put a boss for a scrwing down a rail. if you want open sights use a AR type sight that goes onthe rail..
 
#18 ·
you should make the "hinge block/rsb" as wide as the trunnion and the top of the bolt/carrier the same way so there's more weight and heck then i could do my dream build of a skorpion on steriods and use a rectangle tube for the receiver and weld the trunnion in with a removable rear trunnion for take down and a small grip housing (mg42) with ar15 fcg hehehehe
 
#20 ·
I also considerd a square tube reciver but decided the ak reciver was just to easy to add alreadly avaliable parts . but a square tube with a removable rear trunion is easly doable. there are a lot of ways to go it all depends oin how much machine work you want to do.
 
#22 ·
Actually with a square tube receiver (or even an ak) you could have the ejector slot on the bottom of the bolt so the ejector could be riveted on the bottom like an Uzi or maybe the ejector slot in the middle on the bottom for guys like me that would Do top ejection haha yes like a skorpion ;)
 
#30 ·
I have my EOD bolt from my x25 pistol, that I was thinking of taking to a machine shop to see how much a run of say 10 each copies would be. I need one for my 2XTM 9mm build.
 
#31 ·
I have my EOD bolt from my x25 pistol, that I was thinking of taking to a machine shop to see how much a run of say 10 each copies would be. I need one for my 2XTM 9mm build.
did he patent any part of it???? id be interestd in something like that but with a simple metal lug threaded for were the pistion could screw into easly or be omitted if desired.

WITH THE PRICE OF AND DEMAND FOR KITS THESE DAYS I CANT BELIVE MORE COMPANYS HAVE NOT COME OUT WITH US MADE PARTS AND BLOW BACK OPTION BUILDS. I ALSO CANT BELIVE THAT THERE ARE NOT US COMPANYS MAKING A CHEAP SIMPLE 9MM AND OTHER PISTOL CAL BLOW BACK AK CLONE. SEEMS LIKE A PROFIT COULD BE MADE AT AROUND $350 OR SO.

iTS ABOUT $4 IN MATERIALS TO MAKE A RECIVER . STOCKS ARE CHEAP, THERE ARE LOTS OF CHEAP TRIGGER PARTS OUT THERE. ON A BLOW ABACK THE TRUNION IS NOT LOAD BEARING SO IT COULD BE MADE CHEAP OE EVEN CAST. THERE IS NOT A LOT TO THESE IF YOUR A GUN MAKER ALREADY. I BET EVEN WITH A BARREL AND A STOCK SET THERE IS NOT $100 IN MATERIALS. ALL THEY WOULD HVE TO BE AS A GLORIFED 22lr SCALED UP. i WAS STUDYING THE RUGER 10-22 AND THINKING HOW IT COULD BE COPIED BUT BIGGER FOR A 9MM OR X25 BLOW BACK.
 
#37 ·
did he patent any part of it???? id be interestd in something like that but with a simple metal lug threaded for were the pistion could screw into easly or be omitted if desired.

WITH THE PRICE OF AND DEMAND FOR KITS THESE DAYS I CANT BELIVE MORE COMPANYS HAVE NOT COME OUT WITH US MADE PARTS AND BLOW BACK OPTION BUILDS. I ALSO CANT BELIVE THAT THERE ARE NOT US COMPANYS MAKING A CHEAP SIMPLE 9MM AND OTHER PISTOL CAL BLOW BACK AK CLONE. SEEMS LIKE A PROFIT COULD BE MADE AT AROUND $350 OR SO.

iTS ABOUT $4 IN MATERIALS TO MAKE A RECIVER . STOCKS ARE CHEAP, THERE ARE LOTS OF CHEAP TRIGGER PARTS OUT THERE. ON A BLOW ABACK THE TRUNION IS NOT LOAD BEARING SO IT COULD BE MADE CHEAP OE EVEN CAST. THERE IS NOT A LOT TO THESE IF YOUR A GUN MAKER ALREADY. I BET EVEN WITH A BARREL AND A STOCK SET THERE IS NOT $100 IN MATERIALS. ALL THEY WOULD HVE TO BE AS A GLORIFED 22lr SCALED UP. i WAS STUDYING THE RUGER 10-22 AND THINKING HOW IT COULD BE COPIED BUT BIGGER FOR A 9MM OR X25 BLOW BACK.
Hey 1biggun, I don't know if he patented anything or not. I haven't seen any information regarding patents, but to a degree his is similar to the Bizon bolt/carrier, so I'm not sure that he could.

I plan to take the bolt/carrier assy to the machine shop tomorrow and check the cost. I hope Smartbomb can get something going on his end as well. We'll see. I'll post the cost when I get it from the machine shop. It may take a week or so to get the quote depending on how busy they are. I'm hoping that with a run of 10 units, I can get the cost down to around $80.00 per unit.
 
#33 ·
I think HiPoint has the cheap(est) pistol caliber carbine market sewn up. ;) Keltec would probably beat them if they ever got enough product out to satisfy demand.

Other than wanting an AK in a blowback caliber, not much advantage to using the design from a cost standpoint. Nothing wrong with that, I'd love to have a cheap Bizon clone. But if you're just wanting cheap to make......

Your cheapest manufacturing process gun is going to be a tube based gun like most of the cheap subguns of the world. Simple lathe work to turn out, minimal milling, and use off the shelf components as much as possible to reduce tooling costs. A foot of tube is going to be $4 or less in bulk, thread each end and mill in a few openings. Weld on a few attachments, receiver done. Or if you really wanna go cheap, bend from a flat with stamped out openings, but the tooling startup costs are higher. Barstock for a bolt, rear plug, and front trunnion is gonna be a few bucks a foot, again some minimal lathe work and mill time. Look at the Tec9 and MAC series, those were cheap to make and sold for years in the sub $200 range. Only after the AW bans and such did they shoot up. Of course, MSRP has little to do with actual manufacturing costs. Does a $2500 AR15 variant really cost that much more to make than the $650 one?
 
#34 ·
very true but I think a AK blow back might sell a little better. every mall ninja would want one.
that same bar stock can also make a bolt to fit a AK reciver with a few slots milled in it. It would be slightly more work but not froma CNC stand point the costs would likely only be a few dollars more. iwas thinking all the dod dads thatalready fit a AK like stocks and rails and all the cheap FCGs and all the other already on the shelf stuff out there. it just seams like you wpould only have to really figure out a very good mag well and a a bolt to make these a sellable product. EOD is close witht he parts they sell why not get it to gether and make complete rifles??? and I agree that it might not be the best design or way to do a blow back rilfe but I still think they would sell if they looked like a AK better than some thing else. if a $900 9mm or 7.62x39 can sell Id think a $300 or $400 AK would be a sellable item in the same calibur.

I wish i had the $$$$$ to start a company and insure it.
 
#35 ·
Make it so it takes AR15 furniture and probably 75% or more of the mall ninja add ons are there. Thread the rear cap for the buffer tube, and a lip around the front trunnion would mount the forearm, retained with a standard AR15 bracket in the front. Slap on some Picatinny rails everywhere and there ya go.

I'm looking at it from the standpoint of starting from scratch, if you were a manufacturer already making AKs it might be easier and cheaper to modify the few parts you would need and make use of your existing setup as much as possible. Hipoint cranks out their carbine so cheap because they essentially just took their handgun design and enclosed it in a clamshell stock. They are setup for zinc casting work, so that works for them.
 
#36 ·
Make it so it takes AR15 furniture and probably 75% or more of the mall ninja add ons are there. Thread the rear cap for the buffer tube, and a lip around the front trunnion would mount the forearm, retained with a standard AR15 bracket in the front. Slap on some Picatinny rails everywhere and there ya go.
Not a bad idea i like the idea od using cheap AR stocks and I like the retactables enough to have put a few on my hunting AK,s so I can a djust for my son as well as heavy jackets in cold weather. there is tons of AR doddads cheap.

I like to think fronm scratch but I also ahve a pile of home made flats I cut as well as a flat bender so it easier for me to start there but not buy much. a square or round reciver made to fit a much easier to build bolt assembly is not a big deal.

I have been wanting to build a longer barrel sporting type blow back foir a while id like to get some accuracy out of it. a square reciver could give me some of the looks I want.
 
#38 ·
I'd like to get a bolt body like the EOD, with no angle cuts on the back of the bolt, just 90 degerees square cut and no, boltface, firing pin hole, bolt stop or ejector cut for my second prototype. I think the body length (not the op rod) needs to be 7/8 shorter than the EOD body, but I'm waiting on parts to show up so I can be sure. I have this 9mm gun about figured out now. I'd pay to have a simple one done so I can make another prototype type weapon. If you don't understand my request, feel free to e-mail me. gwailo7@(REMOVE)gmail.com

Thanks
Kenny
 
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