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.357 ak

6K views 32 replies 8 participants last post by  moleman 
#1 ·
Is their a mag for the .357 other than a coonan ? I thinking of a conversion AK in .357.
Muttman.
 
#4 ·
Have you considered a 9mm win mag or 9mmx24 same power an a 7.62x25 mag will work.

I relaize 357 brass is every were but a rimless would be easier . you could possably add a block to the back of a 223 mag with a slot for the rims. maybe ??????????????

I lke like the 357 also considered a converson to go along with my Ruger Black Hawk 357. im thinking you would need a single stack mag of some sort. .
 
#5 ·
here is what they look like in a Galil blank firing mag. ;) note the spacer block welded in the front so a regular 223 round with a bullet will not fit. i thught thye would be good for maybe a tokerov or rimmles pistol build . there cheap enough to cut up for parts if needed they have a short length sprin an a short follower so there good to have for various ideas.

the mag is only 10 round ( will hold 12) o but there only $9. PM for info.

a guy could make a insert to slide the rims into so they single stack pretty easy likely have to pinch the lips in or just make it feed from one side with a spacer on the other side so the rounds stay in before loaded. . i was playing with this a week ago. was looking at doing a 44mag this way as well.

starline makes good 9mm extra long brass so If i do one ill likely go that route.

Im thinking this will need to be a gas operated set up .

btw those mags would be perfect for a 7.62x25 witha 180 frain bullet for a subsonic applicatiion . I was going to see how a 17 fire ball an 22 fire ball an m1 carbine fit them. they seem to cheap to ignore . if you can ake them work a standard 223 mag would be no differant just have to add the spacers/.
 

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#7 ·
If you're just wanting a rimless 357 case, just cut 223 cases off at the shoulder, open them up and turn the necks. Then you have a case that can be loaded to 55k-60k psi and cheap. You can get 357max velocity out of it pretty easy. In an ar15 I went with 357 max length loaded to 55k-60k psi and I'm getting some impressive velocities out of it even though reforming the shoulder into a neck is a PITA. Starting at or below the shoulder would greatly simplify case making.
 

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#8 ·
Moleman,
This one is gunna be a strate blow back build. the $$ spent on this one needs to be @ 0 so if all I have in to it is barrel, a few mags then Ill be safe with the boss. BTW, I do like the idea of reforming .223 brass to make a rimless .357 case that would make making the boldt head easy, and the case rim to mag prob.
Muttman
 
#9 ·
Sorry, missed the blowback part. You'd want to keep the gas piston and locking bolt with the higher psi ones I was talking about. The 223 cases are easy to modify if cut below the shoulder. About all you'd need to do is turn the necks to reduce the thickness a bit.
 
#11 ·
yea im thinking gas operated as well. the 357 has a good deal of pressure. im not sure if its more than a 7.62x25 or not.

i like the cut down 223 brass.

to form them when cut above the neck. Why not fire form them straight?? there are ways to fire form in dies also.


I think there are some cheap 357 or 9mm barrel blanks on numrich also there are some on green mountins site. ill look at my saved lins for others
 
#12 ·
to form them when cut above the neck. Why not fire form them straight?? there are ways to fire form in dies also.

I tried fireforming the brass for my 357AR which is 1.595" trim, 1.605" max length. That included the entire shoulder on the 223 case and a touch of the neck. I worked up the wax plug and charge until it was a max charge for a 357mag and quick powder. It didn't open up the case enough after repeated firings. . So I tried necking up the case to .357" and tried the same thing. with pretty much the same result, an undersized case. The web on the cases is thick and takes a near full charge with a bullet to fireform. What I did was to just make an expander die that would open up the 223 cases including all but the bottem 1/4 of the case which takes a near full charge to expand all the way. To address the bump left over from the neck I made a roller tool which removes any hint of the bump. Otherwise the bump will stay there through at least 12 firings at 55k-62k PSI (and according to quick load a couple at 72k psi)
Heres the expander stems I use in a standard Lee powder through die to open up the cases and the roller tool. Any nick in the case neck will result in a split case. By going to 1.455" long and cutting them off at the shoulder you won't have to deal with all of that and still end up with a respectable round.
 

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#13 ·
after looking over some load data for the 357 and the 7.62x25 I have found their is not that mutch diffrence in max load CUP pressure so blow back it will be. I would like to build one in 45acp but cost of a reamer and barrel is too mutch right now I have found a chamberd 357 barrel and mags that should work (or made to) are really cheep and 357 or reformd .223 brass to a rimless 357.
moleman you may have twisted my arm on a 357 max fal. muttman
 
#14 ·
The only real issue I've had so far is mags since I used an ar15. Most mags have a bullet feed guide which makes the front of the mag narrower than the back causing the rounds to single stack in the front and double stack in the back. Since the rounds are basically cylinders that causes problems after about 3 rounds. Pmags have a bullet feed guide that can be removed allowing a near full mag. I don't know how the fal or ak mags would work out as I sold those guns a few years back, but where there's a will there's a way. So far the 357AR is getting around 2396FPS with 158gr bullets (max load of W296) and 2268fps with 180gr bullets (again max loads of W296). 250gr bullets are around 1700fps. I haven't got to 200 gr bullets, but I suspect they should be in the mid 1900's to low 2000 fps. I realize you can load a 35rem hotter which pretty much blows the 357AR out of the water, but looking at a speer #11 book the 357AR loads are right on par with the 35rem which only operates around 35kPSI.
 

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#15 ·
So far the 357AR is getting around 2396FPS with 158gr bullets (max
same speed as a 125 grain 7.62x39 with a lot heaver bullet not bad.

thanks for all the forming data.


i have about 1000 rounds of much fired 223 brass i have been thinking of making into a pistol round of some sort. was thinking 7.62x25 but i might look at this a little.

the AK mags have a bullet guide stop aboput were the ar mags have there bump it can be ground away if the stop is some how relocated to keep the follower in .

The bump is a possable issue for using a dasher round in a 223 Galil mag. I got brass comming an dies soon .
 
#16 ·
I realize you can load a 35rem hotter which pretty much blows the 357AR out of the water, but looking at a speer #11 book the 357AR loads are right on par with the 35rem which only operates around 35kPSI.
I have a 358 win reamer laying here that will beat both of them On a AK :) an I can use 308 brass necked up :) :)

another project for another day.
 
#17 ·
I've been thinking of another 357 build that can perhaps top this one, but I won't be able to get to it until at least spring. An AK build though opens up the case head size and length quite a bit over the ar and a 358 win would be a winner IMHO.
 
#18 ·
Molman,
If I do a Fal in this cal I would be using .223 AK mags. I was thinking of an AK in .35rem but the case is too long for the mag. an adapter for AK mags is a lot easyer to do. Dang it Ill be sending you a pm here soon.
BG,
I still have not found if sombody has evin tryed this yet, I would bet it has. I just need some time to look.
I need some time to try and form a case, still working on my 5.45 reloading.
Muttman
 
#19 ·
Rimmed cases are a PITA to get firing. Still working on a mag for the .45-70 that doesn't require fabrication from the ground-up since PSL mags only hold a few rounds.

Look at any rimmed mag, .22 mags up to D.E. mags. The stacking is the trick. Stack the rounds in the wrong mag, and they might tip enough in the mag to allow the rims to ride over each other, making the top round an accidental bolt hold-open. Like what happens with a Mosin if you load it wrong. The mag has to have a shape that makes for consistent feeding. Perhaps look at a .30 carbine mag for a donor. For that matter you could possibly use a D.E. mag. (There is a DE in .357 right?)

So making the predictable stacking is the trick. Obviously a single-stack design would be easier. If that Galil mag works without letting the cases tip then you are all set. If you DO get it to work my dad will probably want me to build one for his .357/44 Bain & Davis wildcats! (a .347/44 B&D is a .44 mag case necked to .357).
 
#20 ·
that Galil mag will need a bunch of tweeks an will need to be shimed to fire single stack

a 35 remington or any oterh longer build is not that much harder. just opent he mag well up move the trigger guard back, deal with the cross meamber hitting an weld some taps off a ak mag onto what ever mag firts your rund the best. not any harder than getting a 357 mag not feed an load.

NOT PLUG AN PLAY BUY NOT THAT HARD. TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT A SAGIA RECIVER AN COPY IT. USE SAIGA 308 MAGS IF YOU NEED TO PRICY BUT NOT REDICULAS.. YOUR NOT GOING TO NEED A DOZEN MAGS FOR ANY OF THESE HIGHER POWER RIFLES FOR ANY REAL WORLD REASON. A FAL MAG IS A GOOD CANIDATE AS IS M14. I can mage a g3 fit with some work an thre dirt cheap.
 
#22 ·
that Galil mag will need a bunch of tweeks an will need to be shimed to fire single stack

a 35 remington or any oterh longer build is not that much harder. just opent he mag well up move the trigger guard back, deal with the cross meamber hitting an weld some taps off a ak mag onto what ever mag firts your rund the best. not any harder than getting a 357 mag not feed an load.

NOT PLUG AN PLAY BUY NOT THAT HARD. TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT A SAGIA RECIVER AN COPY IT. USE SAIGA 308 MAGS IF YOU NEED TO PRICY BUT NOT REDICULAS.. YOUR NOT GOING TO NEED A DOZEN MAGS FOR ANY OF THESE HIGHER POWER RIFLES FOR ANY REAL WORLD REASON. A FAL MAG IS A GOOD CANIDATE AS IS M14. I can mage a g3 fit with some work an thre dirt cheap.
good point, but I do have a .223 fal boldt head in hand and a -74 kit so it could go eather way on a 357max with ak mags. with a 35 rem I would need to deal with the mag issue only as a 35 rem will fit right in a standard -47 boldt head, hummm dont know yet, I need to to do a 922 count and add that to the cost of build. muttman
 
#21 ·
looking at those 357 rounds on the 223 brass has me thinking a 23mm version in 9mm would be pretty slick on a tokarev m57. i cant seem to find a 9mm barrel to rechamber any were for one however. hell I could do a 9x25 on the thing .

was considering making one but im not sure about the barrel material or hardenss on a pistil with the lugs in the barrel an having the lug for the link would require a really big OD blank to staret with. i f I make one its going to be extra long. Like 6inches long with a extended bushing an built in compenstater etc.

i nned to look at what the 45 auto guys to to make barrels an go from there.
 
#23 ·
if your going to reload an want to make it easy id go with the 357AR set up.

uses a 223 or even a 5,45 bolt lileky as is an you could solder in a ring into a x39 bolt as well on a blow back. you would have to load it a lot less hotter than if you were doing a 357 mag however.

If it were me (an I might build a 357max) id just go with a bulgy kit an add the 357 barrel
an then run likey pretty stock 223 mags. might have to tweek then a bit were the follower stop is. Id do it in a gas gun an it would be pretty much a simple barrel swap only with slight mag tweaks. the cost of used 223 brass is whats attractive for this build. IM betting the gun would shoot cast lead really well also at lower pressures id plan on a adjustable gas port.

In a blow back you going to have to watch pressure with much over a x39 type pressure. a 357 ar blow back would work but its going to have to be loaded really light an then look out if you ever get at a double charge easy to do in a big case like that.

I see a 357 mag ok in blow back, But the 357ar is so much better at every thing from the looks an can be loaded to at least 50,000 PSI.

You might be abkle to get him to ream the chamber cheap also avoiding buying a reamer or a already chamberbed barrel. .

that straght round could damm near be bored on a lathe an then just have the neck an throat cut with a sperate cheaper reamer. liikely could cut the sligh taper with just the travel on the tool post. its only going to be 1.5" or so.

you have a lathe correct???

If it were me an I was committed to a blow back in 35 or 9mm. I would build a 9mmx23win . I would make the chamber so i could use cut down brass an Id make the round also work in a tokarev pistol with a 9mm barrel. you would have the option of starline or win brass. the win brass will handel lots of pressure unsupported an is tough as hell. the 9x23 has 357mag power or better an will work in a 7.62x25 mag. there are 7.62x25 drums an high cap mags that may work like from a ppsh or others. this is a great idea for a blow back or gas an the mags alreadyexist as is. there is even mag well addapters out there to take them.
 
#24 ·
bg,
a lathe out back, no but I do have one at work and a bud that runs his mach. shop. so yes. I agree .223 brass is the way to go for this one. as it stands now the -74 kit is a 357 max and the l1a1 lower is for the .223 build. now I just need to get the time to work on them. muttman
 
#26 ·
Desert Eagle .357 mags hold 9 rounds and are widely available.

.38 Special or .357 Magnum brass snaps right into the stock 7.62x39 extractor.

If you don't require giant magazine capacity, the DE mag looks like the way to go.
 
#27 ·
Could use a 30 carbine magazine for 357 magnum rimless.
The 30 carbine magazines have been used for 7.62x25 with longer bullets.
TRUE I LOOKED AT THEM FOR A X25 AK BUILD.

bg,
a lathe out back, no but I do have one at work and a bud that runs his mach. shop. so yes. I agree .223 brass is the way to go for this one. as it stands now the -74 kit is a 357 max and the l1a1 lower is for the .223 build. now I just need to get the time to work on them. muttman
YEA I AGREE AN IF YOU GOING TO GO WITH 223 BRASS MIGHT AS WELL MAKE THEM AS LONG AS POSSABLE AN GET SOME POWER. A GAS GUN IS A LOT EAISER TO MAKE AS ALL THE PARTS ARE IN THE KIT.

I HAVE BEEN LOOKING THIS OVER AN AN WONDERING HOW .32 CAL BULLET WOULD BE ON A SET UP LIKE THIS ??????? IT WOULD GIVE YOU A SHOULDER TO HEAD SPACE ON. MIGHT NOT BE ANY BETTER THAN A 300 BLACK OUT WITH A LOT MORE TROUBLE FOR NOTHING.

IM ASSUMING THE 357AR HEAD SPACES ON THE CASE MOUTH?????? ALSO ARE THERE FACTORY DIES FOR THE 357AR I FORGET ???


WITH ONCE FIRED 223 BRASS BEING REASONABLY CHEAP IT ONLY MAKES SENCE TO USE IT FOR A PROJECT LIKE THIS. MAKE SOME TRIM DIES FROM THE CHAMBER REAMER AN SET UP A LITTEL CUTTTING STATION AN YOU COULD COULD A LOT OF BRASS IN A HURRY

IF I COULD EVER FIND A 9MM TOKAREV BARREL iD BE ALL OVER DOING A 9X23 OR 24 0R 25MM

I have been tempted to just buy a 1911 in 38 super an chamber it to somthing like this. to much money. I have three m57 yugos an it would be nice to just find a 9mm an ream it.
 
#28 ·
1Biggun, With the longer .357" and .358" bullets that I was wanting to shoot, about as long of a case as I could go with was 1.595" -1.605" of the 357max... So thats what I did. The case does headspace on the case mouth, and you can use standard 357max dies (I'm using a Lee 38/357mag/357max die set with a replacement top punch for the pointed bullets). I plan on making a set of custom dies for it at some point as the Lee carbide dies I have been using remove the fireformed .005" case taper at each reload. There doesn't seem to be an issue with overworking the brass as I've reloaded some cases 12x, but it might be nice if it kept the extra capacity.
There is a .32 or .33 ar15 round. I've got a pic of it based on a 357max case showing the difference in it and a 223 in the webbing.
 

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