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Thread: What SMG kit is easiest to convert/build as semi auto?

  1. #31
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donvito
    Just for the reasons I posted to start with. If you want to see it from the ATF go research their website for a few days. All of the answers are there.

    You can not build a Sterling or Sten semiauto from all imported parts. You have a 10 part rule. So out of the receiver, trunions, barrel, bolt, hammer, trigger, sear, disconnector cocking handle, stock, mag body, floorplate, follower, and some items I probably left out you can only use 10... the rest need to be US made or you have assembled a firearm that otherwise is forbidden from importation and have broken the law.


    Second, those Sterling parts are designed to fit into a full auto Sterling receiver. Even if the parts only allow for semiauto operation the gun itself would still be a machinegun.

    Third the bolt incorporates forward protruding ammunition feed lips which by itself would preclude it from being used in a US legal semiauto.
    OK I know the 10 part thingy. And I can (and have) read the ATF info. Thanks for the advice.

    My (limited) reading of the semi-auto sten websites indicate the following for legal builds of "tube SMGs". Please correct me if I'm wrong:

    1. Don't use the normal tube - use a smaller tube that will physically limit the use of original parts -OR- shim the tube somehow to prevent installation of FA parts

    2. Build replacement US parts for parts count compliance

    3. Alter desing to be closed-bolt operation. This reverse-engineering is probably the biggest challenge IMO.

    That's it! Parts count OK, closed bolt, incapable of accepting FA parts, legally acceptable. Don't think anyone is suggesting using "all" of the original imported parts that aren't US-made. Unless there's some flavor of gun out there that isn't on the AWB list, but that's doubtful.

    So... what is your point that I'm missing? I guess the point of my long post is that this discussion is about doing in a garage what the semi-auto sten websites do in their commercial shop. We're just imitating that.

  2. #32
    Gunco Member donvito's Avatar
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    The original statement was about using the UK made Sterling semiauto bolt kit to build a semiauto sten or sterling... that would be illegal for the reasons I posted. Building a semisten your self you need to do even more than I mentioned. I'll post details in a day or two when I have time.

  3. #33
    BANNED jpglee1's Avatar
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    "The original statement was about using the UK made Sterling semiauto bolt kit to build a semiauto sten or sterling... that would be illegal for the reasons I posted. Building a semisten your self you need to do even more than I mentioned. I'll post details in a day or two when I have time."



    No offense dude, but you need to remove your cranium from your rectum...


    FIRST of all.. you could build a STEN or STERLING pistol with ALL imported parts. OR NONE..Pistols are exempt...

    SECOND... Smarty, the bolt can HAVE push lips on it..its CLOSED. Its NOT an open bolt setup with a semi auto trigger pack. By your logic every AK and AR-15 are illegal along with countless other semi-autos with PUSH LIPS on the CLOSED boltface... Its only an issue with a fixed protruding firing pin. With a floating FP the round will hang up anyway, precluding FA firing...


    Look REALLY close and try to understand...
    The spring for the main bolt overpowers the spring for the firing pin, holding that disk against the end of the bolt, fully enclosing the FP like in a glock slide.. When the bolt closes, the sear catches the firing pin holding it in the "cocked" position as the main recoil spring forces the bolt closed around it. When the bolt comes to a stop the firing pin is in the same spot but now the spring is compressed since the FP didnt move. So now when you pull the trigger the sear drops and the FP springs forward and hits the primer in the CLOSED bolt...

    Regardless of what you think, those SEMI AUTO STERLING rifles were SOLD HERE legally in the 70s and 80s. AS IS. With the bolts just as they are shown. The BATF approved them then. I would ad a block bar just to be safe, but those parts should suffice in a PISTOL build for sure... The FCG has a positve sear trip in it and the parts are clearly CLOSED BOLT.. That is why I posted them.

    I didnt wake up yesterday dude. Ive built a few guns, I know SOME of my shit... When it comes to THIS topic I feel I am pretty adept. I "Specialize" in semi auto conversions of tube guns. Its my "passion" if you will... The above parts will work in just about ANY 1st gen 1.375" ID tube gun.. its just a matter of engineering the FCG to work with the existing "frame work" of the donor gun...

    Im not trying to bash on you, I just know that what I speak is true or I wouldnt bother posting it... Have a good evening.


    L8R

    Ad a simple blocking bar and clearance notch and you're set to go...
    If you're REALLY worried then turn .1" off the OD of the bolt and use a .1" smaller ID on the tube, then along with the blocking bar no FA bolt will drop back in....

  4. #34
    Gunco Member donvito's Avatar
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    you're not as smart as you think... you will end up getting yourself or someone else in trouble...

    Stens and Sterlings are traditionally shoulder fired... if you are building an abomination like the Sterling semi auto pistol that was imported a few years ago you would not need the US parts.

    And those bolts are ILLEGAL for use in a semiauto, closed bolt or not. You need to pull your head out of your ass and read the laws and ATF opinions. ILLEGAL. ATF has a "readily convertible" opinion on many things and that's one of them! Man, talk about stupid... you say that as long as there is no protruding firing pin it is ok even with the feed lips... have you built a gun like this? If so, YOU HAVE A MACHINEGUN IN THE EYES OF THE ATF.

    Scary that building semiauto versions of tube guns is your specialty... what you post IS NOT TRUE.

  5. #35
    BANNED jpglee1's Avatar
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    "Stens and Sterlings are traditionally shoulder fired... if you are building an abomination like the Sterling semi auto pistol that was imported a few years ago you would not need the US parts."

    Exactly you wouldnt...even if you DID build a carbine you dont need to make many parts... lets see you could make your own:
    Receiver, Stock, Striker, US recoil spring, Sear and US trunnions and I believe you would be under the parts count but I didnt add them up that close..point is its not that hard to make it work... The brits used to use a pistol version of the STEN and STERLING BOTH for clandestine black ops type raids and stuff. It has always been a viable version of the Sten/Sterling.. I personally could care less if my projects are exact copies of the real thing. A lot of people want them perfect, I just want something fun that shoots. I know I could make a Semi Sterling Pistol that would be legal AND hella fun to shoot even if it wasnt a "real" model I was basing it on...its MY gun so who cares



    As for the Push Lips you're so hung up on:

    Yes it IS ok to have protruding firing lips.. and YES I have built one like that... By reducing the I.D. of the tubing you are preventing the bolt from going in...by adding a blocking bar thats now TWO things you removed from the FA equation.. BATF has never said you HAVE TO REMOVE the push lips. They suggest it, but it is NOT required....

    You know, you're making such a big deal outta some little pieces of metal that can be removed from the bolt with a fuckin dremel/grinder in 5mins. The push lips are nothing to worry about... NO AK 47 on this planet was made originally without them... they are semi auto. My 9mm Carbine (AK-74 based) has push lips on the bolt still...IF your whole argument is about the lips then remove them with an end mill flush to the bolt face.. Its NOT a big deal to get rid of them. I like them, they ad reliability even in a closed bolt.

    IF you eliminate the fixed firing pin (add striker) and ad a blocking bar to the receiver you have made it HARDER to be readily convertible...

    Just about ANY semi-auto gun can be made to run FA... thats not the concern. BATF is more concerned that Bubba Joe Idiot can make them with little or no effort. The BATF knows that NOTHING you do to a TUBE gun will truly prevent it from being converted...IF you can modify the FA bolt to be semi, you could also mod one to drop back in no matter what steps you take... ANY tube gun that is striker fired can be converted much easier than a hammer fired gun, thats a fact of life...

    Man, I have 5 different letters from BATF and CA DOJ on these very subjects. I havent posted them because I dont have a scanner and a JPG of the letters isnt readible. They have informed me in NO uncertain terms that as long as I remove the fixed firing pin, reduce the OD of the bolt and tube by at least .1" and install a blocking bar I will be A-OK...

    Look, Im not trying to flame back and forth...just trust me on this one. Take the time to write a letter to the BATF and local DOJ and get it in writing like I DO...Im not worried about proving myself here, I have the papers/documents to prove my projects are legit if questioned at the range and thats all that matters to me...

    Do some more research. I have spent since 2004 researching and learning this stuff....

  6. #36
    Red Jacket Firearms's Avatar
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    An Uzi's not even undersized , it just has the restrictor bar . The feed lip is removed so that if bubba trys to "fix" the firing pin within the bolt , making it into a open bolt , it still wont work .
    Will Hayden, RedJacket Firearms
    www.Redstick-Firearms.com

  7. #37
    BANNED jpglee1's Avatar
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    Thanks Red Jacket...

    On a home built project YOU DONT have to remove the push lips, its preferable if you do of course...

    For a while in the 80s you could buy "bolt rings" at various places to TIG onto a closed UZI bolt to make it fully supported again... 1 of those rings and weld the striker to the bolt is all it took back then...Some of the early Semi UZI's had F/A bolt faces...

    As he said its simple matter to drop a FA bolt into an UZI or a Tec-9 (not a mac, striker fired vs hammer)or any other striker fired gun just by making some super simple mods... Again thats not what the BATF is worried about. They dont want someone to be able to buy 10 of them and in 20mins have 10 SMGs, like happened with the open bolt semi auto MAC-10s... 20secs with a pair of pliers or a grinder and they were FA....

    Anyway, if you do at least TWO of the methods (blocking bar/reduced ID/Remove Push Lips) you will be fine. Submit a sample for approval if you are truly worried about it...As long as you arent out acting like an asshat with your toy no one will care to look inside anyway. As soon as LEO see's that its NOT firing from open bolt and WONT go F/A...he will leave you alone (hell, he'll prolly wanna shoot it LOL)...

    Ill see what I can do about getting my letters posted up here. Maybe I can FAX them to someone and they can post the FAX for me?? I dunno...

    Anyone else out there agree with me??? L8R

  8. #38
    GuncoHolic kernelkrink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpglee1

    As he said its simple matter to drop a FA bolt into an UZI or a Tec-9 (not a mac, striker fired vs hammer)or any other striker fired gun just by making some super simple mods...
    Actually, I think you CAN drop a full auto bolt in an M11/Nine and have a "spitfire", if you drop the bolt on a full mag it empties it. I do know that the semi auto bolt has the "pusher lips" on the bolt just like the FA one does, in fact other than missing the notches on the bottom to engage the sear a semi bolt appears to be identical to the FA one. You could probably even jam the semi firing pin in the forward position and make it do the same thing. Yet they made IMI add a blocking bar and remove feedlips. No one has ever accused ATF of being consistent!

  9. #39
    BANNED jpglee1's Avatar
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    *covers eyes* I didnt read that.....


    ..kinda like thos sputter gun sten things...LOL


    L8R

  10. #40
    Gunco Member donvito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donvito
    don't hold your breath waiting for the BSA3 cause it ain't happening
    Still haven't seen a BSA3... have any of you?

    Quote Originally Posted by jpglee1
    SECOND... Smarty, the bolt can HAVE push lips on it..its CLOSED. Its NOT an open bolt setup with a semi auto trigger pack. By your logic every AK and AR-15 are illegal along with countless other semi-autos with PUSH LIPS on the CLOSED boltface... Its only an issue with a fixed protruding firing pin. With a floating FP the round will hang up anyway, precluding FA firing...
    Well SMARTY I had a meeting with a Tech Branch agent just the other day on another subject and ran your feedlips by him. He said "NO WAY". Confirms what I thought, you don't know as much as you think you do.

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