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Survival & meat

4K views 28 replies 11 participants last post by  MUSIBIKE 
#1 ·
Hi guys,

We sort of 'do' survival in the UK, but more in the way of Ray Mears than total disaster survival. So this got me thinking about the different ways you guys in the US hunt. I know you guys hunt deer, I do much the same and own a large area of shooting rights where I shoot Red stags ( This beast was shot right next to my shooting area Giant red stag Exmoor Emperor shot dead | UK news | guardian.co.uk ). We don't have limits or tags or anything like that. It's down to the deer manager to structure a cull plan.
This is an actual Roe deer I shot this year on my hunting land:
[video=youtube;UpKW3i2Vymg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpKW3i2Vymg]English Roe buck stalking - YouTube[/video]

I do a lot of pigeon shooting:
[video=youtube;vDtgchBXLSo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDtgchBXLSo]Pigeon shooting with Mark Gilchrist - YouTube[/video]
And a lot of lamping for Rabbits:
[video=youtube;ah5Lza-vcbY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah5Lza-vcbY]john darling - lamping rabbits - YouTube[/video]
And with a Whippet with the lamp:
[video=youtube;NcaEDQs64SI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcaEDQs64SI]whippet lamping rabbit - YouTube[/video]
And with Ferrets:
[video=youtube;LJAWkOx-S38]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJAWkOx-S38]Ferreting with Sten - YouTube[/video]

So it was at this point that it got me thinking, do you guys do the same?

Thanks

John
 
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#2 ·
Yes, We do the same thing in Texas. I like the fast moving Morning Dove. [65 mph]
Lot's of Deer, and plenty of Jack rabbets, and Cotton tail rabbets. Lots of Rattlesnakes to.
I don't Duck hunt much anymore as It's a little to cold for this old person.
 
#4 ·
Wow! That Red stag would make a lot of knife handles!! England is a mysterious place over here. I get the impression that you have so many immigrants ( muslims) that it's amazing you have any woodlands left at all.
(I expect a lot of run down motels & liquor stores)
Do you guys "ferret" for rabbits, Snare rabbits, or just shoot rabbits? We also long net rabbits, which is a net 100 yards long that we will run out and drive the rabbits back in to with dogs. I guess my point is do you guys use what in the UK would be deemed "survival" techniques to obtain meat? Most of our hunting techniques steam from the early 1800's to very early 1900's when commoners for want of a better description were not really able to gather meat. Many of the techniques have died out but many are still in use, I guess necessity is the mother of invention.
I used to do a lot of duck shooting or wildfowling as it's called over here but in my area most of the ducks feed from the River Taff which means the ducks tend to taste of fish more than duck.
One really interesting thing I read was that in the US you guys eat Squirrels, in the UK squirrels are not eaten (in general) and are deemed and even called 'Tree rats'. I think it's very interesting understanding different hunting ways and methods.
Red stage antler will make many knife handles, I have a few trophies of Royal stags that I have shot.
We do have a major issue with immigrants but many Muslims have lived here since they were born. I am not racist by any means, I honestly believe it's the colour of a mans heart that counts not his skin or religion but what I would say on the subject is that in my experience many Muslims do not see the world as I do, which is sad and in my opinion a great many bad things have been done in the name of religion and will continue to happen until we all become wiser. It's true to say that in some areas of the UK you will not find an English speaking person. The UK is small compared to the US, I believe you could fit Wales in to Texas three times over. We call motels and liquor stores, hotels and off-licenses. The Hotel trade seems to be okay and the off-licenses are trading but kids start drinking young over here. You are an adult at 18 years old, many girls having their first kids at 17 in the UK. You will commonly see 14 year old drinking and up to no good at all in the UK. I think it is better the way things are in the US where 21 is the age of and adult.

John
 
#3 ·
Wow! That Red stag would make a lot of knife handles!! England is a mysterious place over here. I get the impression that you have so many immigrants ( muslims) that it's amazing you have any woodlands left at all.

(I expect a lot of run down motels & liquor stores) On the other hand the wife & I have recently moved to a rural area in Missouri where our 20 acres is the smallest yard in the county & have whitetail deers crawling all over us. Most folks here still own at least a quarter section or much more.
For fast birds we have timberdoodles.
 
#5 ·
I had never seen ferreting for rabbits before, but it looks like lots of fun! We mainly just shoot them here but I have set simple box traps for them in the past. And hunting most anything at night (except frogs, racoons/opposums, wild hogs in some parts of the country) is illegal. What you call "lamping" we call spotlighting.
And yes, some folks here eat the tree rats (squirrels) but its more of an aquired taste. I'd much rather have rabbit.
 
#7 ·
I use to rabbit hunt with my father and uncles when i was a child.(around 1958/1967) My dad raised beagles and they would jump the game and get them running.I had a 410 shotgun and the adults used 12ga.Haha,we would take tree rats also to add to the pot.
 
#9 ·
We have 50 States, each with its own laws concerning legal hunting methods.

Nothing about ferreting is in my State's law, so I most likely CANNOT use a ferret.

Trapping is only allowed on certain animals, rabbits are NOT among them. Rabbits can only be hunted (killed with a projectile).

Furthermore, unless I am a Resident Landowner (such as a farmer) I must obtain the appropriate small game, big game, furbearer or varmint license. In either case, laws concerning "seasons" on various animals must be followed.

In a truly SHTF environment, I doubt law will really apply. In that case, any effective harvest technique would be useful.
 
#10 ·
The UK laws are complex. We have game laws that cover animals that are considered "game", for example hares, partridges, pheasants, grouse etc. We have laws that cover wildfowl, ducks and geese, We have laws that cover Deer and then we have laws that forbid the killing of everything else. However this is where is become complex, we have what is know as "The General License", this is a list of species that we are able to kill and that are classed as vermin. Woodpigeons, although a great sporting bird are classed as vermin in UK, fox are vermin, rabbits vermin, jays, squirrels and the list goes on. To make things even more complex, certain addition laws were made, such as the rabbit clearance order and the pest act, which makes landowners liable for the damage caused by rabbits and legally responsible. Which mean every land owner has to activity try and kill all their rabbits or at least keep rabbit numbers to a low level.
Over the years, the poor rabbit has fed many a starving family, hunting methods have evolved.
"spotlighting" is really great sport but it is illegal to spotlight deer in the UK. The Mrs. and I were walking the dogs last night, I spotted a fox in the next field and call it to less than 10 yards away twice! Obviously I had no gun and no wish for the dogs to chase a fox, but using nothing more than the back of your hand and a spotlight it's great fun.
Ferreting is a stable way to harvest rabbits. Here are my ferrets : [video=youtube;zjVcfd4YQkE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjVcfd4YQkE]Shotguns & Ferrets - YouTube[/video]

It can be done in two ways but the basic method is to place a ferret in the rabbit warren, the ferret being a natural enemy of the rabbit will chase the rabbit out of it's warren. You can then use either nets or shoot the bolting rabbits with shotguns or use Lurchers/Whippets to chase and catch the rabbits. The great thing with nets is that you can live catch the rabbits and relocate them if you wish. There is no sport like shooting bolting rabbits on a frosty morning.
Where rabbits are a serious pest we can run long wire fences (permanent structures) with drop boxes every ten or so yards but this is only done on a commercial pest control bases in the UK. We don't have any licensing systems in place, other than gun licensing and the general license. However like most UK laws it's not a simple case of just killing an animal, you need to have a good reason and in the UK if the animal is not for food such as sheep, cows, chickens, not for sport such as game animals or not vermin then it is illegal to kill the animal. You can not just go on to any land and kill an animal, you must first gain the permission of the landowner. Our laws are convoluted and ancient with modern being cemented with ancient.
At one point the government made it illegal to shoot animals with expanding bullets, because expanding bullets were more dangerous than FMJ. They had to change that when they found out that the Deer act stated we could only use expanding bullets to shoot deer.:loopeye:

I think I will have to try a Squirrel. If anyone has a good recipe they would like to share, I would be more than happy to swap for a Rabbit stew recipe.

Saddens me to think that kids are no longer kids no matter where they live. I do wonder what the world will be like in two generations time.

John
 
#11 ·
Sounds like the deer mangment expert was "slightly miffed" about hunting during the rut. I must agree with him though, you really need to pratice good managment to keep a heard strong, that's what makes a good hunter. I like a big rack too, but I'd much rather have a nice young 2 year old buck, they taste much better. After all, for me I hunt for meat not the presteige. I don't know about the Reds but the big white tails around her get a bit gamey tasting when there huge and in the rut.
 
#12 ·
Deer management is just that and is done for different reasons in the UK.
For example, if the immediate habitat can not support the deer numbers, then a cull of hinds or does would be in order, if it were tree damage a cull of old stags or bucks and equally you might need to inject cash revenue in to the environment to improve areas for deer, if that is the case then trophy hunting pays the bills. Red deer rut around October month, open season starts in August month. The stalker was not breaking the law and to be honest I had sat in a High seat the previous season and watched that same stag strut up and down the field below. The stag was just going back, so if I were to put my hand on my heart I would have taken him as well but would have skipped all the publicity. For meat I prefer a hind or a doe, however Roe bucks taste fine, with Muntjac coming second place and reds third. I do not like the taste of Fallow at all, taste like ferrets rear ends smell in my opinion. I have some very fine fallow land, 20 mins up the road from me but don't tent to stalk there. Red stags lose condition and when spent (after the rut) the meat isn't so good.

John


Sounds like the deer mangment expert was "slightly miffed" about hunting during the rut. I must agree with him though, you really need to pratice good managment to keep a heard strong, that's what makes a good hunter. I like a big rack too, but I'd much rather have a nice young 2 year old buck, they taste much better. After all, for me I hunt for meat not the presteige. I don't know about the Reds but the big white tails around her get a bit gamey tasting when there huge and in the rut.
 
#13 ·
#14 ·
Thanks for that, I had a quick read but will have a good read later. Seems very complex. I really like the Government letting people use public land but does the bag limits and licenses apply if you actually own the land you are hunting over?

In the UK (complex laws aside, this is a bottom line guide to hunting).

Anyone can own a sub 12 ftlb airgun. Anyone can own a shotgun but needs to apply for a Shotgun license. To own a firearm you must have a good reason.

(Obviously for Shotguns & Firearms the police do a lengthy background check and home visit).

Okay, so I want to shoot rabbits, all I have to do if I do not own land with rabbits is to call over to a farm and ask the landowner for permission to shoot his/her rabbits and as long as they agree, that's it. I can shoot rabbits 24/7 as many and as often as I want. Same goes for all other species, unless they have a closed season in which case I can only shoot when the species are legally open, no bag limits no fees to pay.

It is possible to buy a shooting lease from the Government, but it's expensive and aimed more a businesses than private people. The Government want to see qualifications (deer stalking certificates), method statements, Risk assessments. Cost are around $2 per acre of wood land. You would own the sole shooting for that area for the whole period of the lease, which can be as long as 5 years. Private landowners will also lease or sell the shooting rights to their farms, which mean that the holder of the shooting rights has sole use of the farm for shooting.
There is a lot of free shooting in the UK (private landowners giving permission) but on good land, you can have people in every hedge trying to shoot "something".

John
 
#15 ·
No license is required to own rifles, handguns or shotguns (as defined in law) at the Federal (U.S.A.) level, but local restrictions unfortunately can and do apply. We are fighting against these local restrictions (my state has few to no restrictions) and several local laws have been overturned or superceded.

In my state, land ownership only negates the need to purchase certain licenses. Daily limits still apply. For instance, the current cottontail rabbit limits are 10 per day, 30 total in possession. Any landowner in possession of more than 30 rabbits would be in violation of the law.

We only rarely hear of daily/possession limit law being enforced, and most of the time the enforcement is made against those truly stupid enough to openly break the law.

Considering how much of each game type is allowed, simply eating what you've hunted is an easy way to stay within the limits of the law.
 
#16 ·
Any landowner in possession of more than 30 rabbits would be in violation of the law.

So, if the landowner farmed rabbits for a living, would he also have to stick to killing just 30?

In the UK, no wild animal is owned until it has been killed, it's the right to killing the animal that is owned.

Do you guys not have a problem with rabbits damaging crops? Over here it's a massive problem, same with Pigeons (or doves).

I guess the law is the law, and as gun owners we should be well aware that we need to abide by the law. Over here a nights lamping in troubled areas could produce bags in excess of 100 rabbits. A lot of the guys who shoot big bags will sell in to the butchers (meat stores) for $1.50 (£1) per rabbit.
Pigeons are 50p (75 cents ?) each.

Strange thing is with Pheasants, the birds are only worth $3. It cost more to buy the poults and to rear the birds to adult than the birds are worth when shot. This is why pheasant shooting is so expensive in the UK with many people paying $45 to shoot just one bird.

John
 
#17 ·
Red Stag! I would love to hunt that.

Yep, we hunt deer (Muleys mostly - some White Tail), Pronghorn, Elk and Moose. Also upland game birds like Chukar, Hungarian Partridge, Sage Grouse, Blue Grouse, Pheasant and Turkey. Dove when I can (weather tends to drive them out before season starts). Also waterfowl - Ducks and Geese. Unfortunately we have no Wild Boar (seems they can't survive here for some reason).
 
#18 ·
AFAIK, bag limits apply to everybody. In my state, owning agricultural land is an exemption to the license, hunting and fishing your own land is part of the rights of ownership. Deer, for example, have to be taken to a check in station and recorded. With each license comes a tag you have to affix to the hind leg and has to remain on the carcass until butchered. As a landowner, if I shoot one on my land all I have to do is put my name and address on a tag I make myself and attach it. All other laws still apply though: bag limit, legal season for hunting with a firearm, bow, or blackpowder muzzleloader, etc. Normal limit is 1 deer per type of license (bow, firearm, or blackpowder) but some counties have "bonus permits" that allow you to shoot up to 8 more deer in counties with a large overpopulation of deer.

Now, the one exception to bag limits are what are known as "depradation permits". If say a lot of deer are eating my crops, I can apply for one of those permits and if approved essentially any deer on my land become the same class as "nuisance wildlife" like groundhogs or rats: no bag limits, you can shoot outside normal hunting season, and can use any type of weapon to kill them.

Nuisance animals covers a whole lot of stuff besides deer, and taking just about any small critter is allowed without a license or permit if you see them being a nuisance (racoons in the attic for example) and they are not a protected species. If you see a rabbit in the garden, blast it. Fortunately, around here anyway, exceeding a bag limit for nuisance wildlife control purposes would be pretty rare due to the lack of opportunities to "catch them in the act".

Here, we start out with deer bow season in Oct to late Nov, then firearms for most of Nov, then bow and blackpowder overlap during Dec to Jan. "Urban deer hunting" can only be done with a bow and follows the normal bow season, except the first bow season starts about 2 weeks earlier for deer hunted inside a town or city limits. Firearms here consist of shotguns with slugs only, handguns of .357 magnum cal or above, and rifles that shoot the legal handgun calibers only. Blackpowder handguns and rifles can be used during blackpowder or firearms seasons.
 
#20 ·
And keep in mind that when someone says "here" they are referring to the State that they live in. Bag limits, dates of hunting seasons, kinds of wildlife, all vary from state to state, or even region within a State. Here in Kentucky, we have Whitetail deer, but no Mule deer, or Blacktails. Elk are only in the mountains in the very eastern edge of Kentucky. No pheasants to speak of, but we have Mourning doves, ducks, geese, quail, and turkey that are the most popular game birds. Cottontail rabbits are plentiful, Jack rabbits live out West.

Of course this only scratches the surface, but its really interesting to hear about the differences of hunting here and the UK.

Btw, here in America, folks refer to pigeons as "flying" rats :)
 
#21 ·
I guess it's a different 'mentality' here in the UK, I'm not saying we have the right mentality as I actually like the idea of bag limits. Over here no landowner wants rabbits on their farm or pigeons on their crops, as such total eradication if that were possible would be welcome on most farms. It's the hunters that try to preserve quarry numbers, but if I am to be honest I'm a little old school or so it seems. Many 'new' guys just seem to want to make a mess of an animal, shoot as many as possible and move on to the next.
Pigeons: We have a few, Woodpigeon (Legally a pest species but regarded by hunters as an exceptional sporting bird), Feral Pigeons regraded as 'fly' rats as well ;), Rock Doves (look a bit like Woodpigeons but are protected), Collard doves (introduced in the 1950's and have spread like wildfire to become another pest species, taste good as well!) and ornamental doves etc.
Pheasants: Much the same over here, it's a rich man's sport. To buy a young poult it will cost you $3 (most shoots will put 2000 to 3000 birds on the ground), you then have to look after the birds, feeding them and keeping the birds in 'pen' until the birds are ready to be released which all cost money. Total cost per bird from poult to being shot is around $27. The bird is worth $5 at market, so it cost the shoot owners $22 more than the bird is worth to take it from young to shoot able if that makes sense.

Okay, the shoots will charge a gun $45 to shoot each bird, the gun could go down the market and buy a bird saving $40.
The worst thing of all is if we have bad weather, what happens then is that the shoots can not operate at the beginning of the open season, obviously the birds have cost $1000's, so they will hold cheap shoots at the end of the season to recuperate their money. Problem is that there isn't a big market in the UK for Pheasant after Xmas, so a great number of birds are shot and simply buried. That's what happens when things are run as a business.

John
 
#24 ·
I guess it's a different 'mentality' here in the UK, I'm not saying we have the right mentality as I actually like the idea of bag limits. Over here no landowner wants rabbits on their farm or pigeons on their crops, as such total eradication if that were possible would be welcome on most farms.
Most hunters will follow the bag limits and not let the animals they do kill go to waste, although there are always those few that don't care or won't follow the law.

The wild boar problem here is much like your rabbit infestation. Total eradication is the goal, but will likely never happen, as they breed so quickly. As a non-native species, they are destroying farmland, woodlands, wildlife, farm stock, and can be pretty dangerous to people too. Its the one animal I could care less if people left laying. They can be eaten but I've never tried any, the hogs haven't made it in to Kentucky yet. They would be fun to shoot at but I don't want them in my backyard. Just imagine if your rabbits bred at about the same rate, grew to 3 to 400 pounds on average and were mean as hell. Thats the hog problem in the US.
 
#27 ·
Must be a variational thing, or maybe what they eat.

Around here, venison is some of the very best tasting meat. My family prefers it to prime beef. Not to say that wild pig would be bad tasting - I wouldn't know as we don't have feral pigs here.
 
#28 ·
Must be a variational thing, or maybe what they eat.

Around here, venison is some of the very best tasting meat. My family prefers it to prime beef. Not to say that wild pig would be bad tasting - I wouldn't know as we don't have feral pigs here.

We have six species of Wild deer and obviously Boar, biggest to smallest :

Red Deer - Taste like beef.
Sika Deer - Never tasted one
Fallow Deer - Taste like ferrets rear ends smell, I don't like fallow
Roe Deer - By far and wide the best tasting meat, sort of like spring lamb
Chinese Water Deer - Never tasted one
Muntjac - Second best tasting meat, sort of like pork x venison

Wild Boar - Red meat, sort of like Muntjac x with pork or two thirds pork, one third venison. There are plenty of boar in Dean (40 mins away from my home) : Wild Boar Information Page

The deer you see, if a Fallow Deer. We have a couple of other species of deer such a Reindeer but not in abundance.

John
 
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