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M16s Nam. Now Iraq. ??

8K views 54 replies 23 participants last post by  4thIDvet 
#1 ·
:salute:
Talking to my neighbor yesterday. He is a Viet-Nam vet Marine. He was early Nam and was one of the unlucky Vets to get the "Bad" M-16s that were shipped over there.
I guess the horror stories were true about jamming and doing bad things when needed.
Mine, a later issue, never failed me. It always went bang when I pulled the trigger.
We have a lot of Iraq vets joining the site. :salute:
Are these weapons working for you guys in the Sand Box??
I see pictures of the special ops guys and a lot of them seem to be carrying AKs.
What is up with the M16 over there???
 
G
#34 ·
G'day folks

I've been lucky to operate a lot of weapons over the years from Owen Gun to M4/203 rigs, the early M16's needed to have the gas system "flushed" occasionally and yes the throats wore on the Mattel toys.

Name a perfect battle rifle ? they have there points but some fool alwys gets in the way,

we tested the AR180 next gens here for a year and we all gave it the thumbs up but we went to styers that the first issue had UV issues on the plastics, chemical issues the next and we are on mark 4 now.

the M4 as a platform i think is better than a M/16, the action is cleaner, the recoil on FA is far better with less twist to it, but yes run em dry or with graphite in desert and cement dust conditions.

Rhino systems (sp?) had a FN L1A1 SLR style gas system that was fitted to our
SAS's 203's for extented ops to reduce chances of fouling if in heavy usage for extended periods, but it was mark 2 style adjustable, very nice setup and well thought of by all who used it. But theres only 40 or so...

as for why spec ops use AK's its because the indians dont use M'4's and shoot at anyone with one on site. its a second look item.

a mate is now in a snatch squad, a PMO group that chase down car and road side bomb makers.. they carry AK's and and P's, they made the news with catching the two tankers full of ampho set to go late last year in Bagdad.

cheers folks

jack
 
#37 ·
:salute:
Talking to my neighbor yesterday. He is a Viet-Nam vet Marine. He was early Nam and was one of the unlucky Vets to get the "Bad" M-16s that were shipped over there.
I guess the horror stories were true about jamming and doing bad things when needed.
Mine, a later issue, never failed me. It always went bang when I pulled the trigger.
We have a lot of Iraq vets joining the site. :salute:
Are these weapons working for you guys in the Sand Box??
I see pictures of the special ops guys and a lot of them seem to be carrying AKs.
What is up with the M16 over there???
I spoke to a marine who had just gotten back from the fallujah area sometime after that dustup they had. He told me if you wanted to get back to base without a stoppage you had to clean your m-4 before a firefight, after a firefight, and if you had an extra 30 minutes during a firefight you needed to clean it then as well. The m-16 series of rifles from their inception right down to today is a scandel. We can do better than this rifle. We should've done better by our troopers.
 
#38 ·
Interesting viewpoints all.

Like I say. The only reason we have what you guys are calling the M4?? I guess is the updated version of the M16 we had. Colt had started production in Hartford Connecticut. Even before the Govt. contract was approved.
They then told the Govt. boys were ready to ship.
A lot of guys died as the first version was a fubar.
Stoners weapon was a better version of the then M16. I know a lot of the special ops guys Seals etc. carried the Stoner in Nam.
I don't own one and have not been around the weapon for a number of years. But some interesting feedback coming in. Pro and Con. :thumbup1:
 
#39 ·
we would sometimes use AK's. but only under certain conditions. and those conditions were not picked up by the press. if we captured a big hooch of ak ammo and were running low on mk-262 for example -- which did happen from time to time.

after being trained for years to "shoot-anybody holding an AK" you can see why you sometimes have to limit the use of the AK by your forces.

i think everybody has an agenda to push in the press these days. HK and FN want to make a big score and sell some uber-gold plated rifles to the armed forces. colt wants to keep selling overpriced m-4s--ect-ect

the biggest problems i see with the ar series are--some what limited power from the 5.56 round and the idea of mags as a disposable item. 80% of ar failures could be cured if we just had some better made mags that were made of thicker stuff around the feed ramps.

the direct gas system is a problem--but it is not as high on problem list as some would suggest. i have a ar-180 and a bushmaster xm-17 that i have had since the late 80's. they have a similar gas system to the much ballyhooed HK-416 system. they use AR-15/m-16 mags and guess what --i have had a few jams with them. all magazine related failures though. the breech is cleaner --but it still isn't --spotless.

i think it is time for a new system for the armed forces--with a new round to go with it. the 6.8spc and the 6.5grendel were good attempts but were constrained by having to fit in the AR-mags.

and while were on the magazine problem--you want to know why 6.5 grendel, 6.8spc only hold 24 or so rounds in a 30rd length ar mag?? the flimsy -thin ar-mags swell up if you try to put more rounds in the damned thing!!--if the mags were made better you could hold around 28-rounds in the same space.

to make a thicker mag --you need a bigger mag well--so while you are at it--you just as well make the mag well a few mm to a cm or so longer so you won't have to push the bullet so far back in the case that it eats up power that could push the bullet faster.

overall i think the AR is still a workable system --but at the same time the writing is on the wall for the 5.56 round. while going to a new round--it is the ideal time for weapon improvements.
 
#40 ·
Chief of staff: Army reviewing complaints over bullets
By JAY REEVES (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
May 29, 2008 5:03 PM EST

HUNTSVILLE, Ala. - The military is reviewing soldiers' complaints that their standard ammunition isn't powerful enough for the type of fighting required in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army's highest-ranking officer said Thursday. But Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, said it was too soon to say whether the Pentagon will switch.
Current and former soldiers interviewed by The Associated Press said the military's M855 rifle rounds are not powerful enough for close-in fighting in cities and towns in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Speaking with reporters at a conference in Huntsville, Casey said leaders are constantly soliciting feedback from soldiers in the field and were aware of complaints about the M855 ammunition.
"To effectively prepare them we have to adapt as the enemy adapts, and that is some of the feedback we have gotten," Casey said. "We'll evaluate it quickly and then we'll decide how we want to proceed."
But Casey said it would be premature to say if the Pentagon will consider a different type of ammunition.
"I can't tell you exactly what we're going to do," he said.
The M855 rounds were designed decades ago to puncture the steel helmets of Soviet soldiers from hundreds of yards away. Some soldiers said that they are not large enough to stop an enemy immediately in close quarters.
Casey said the military has been evaluating its equipment and practices since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.
"Technology is pulling us, and what we're learning on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan is pushing us," he said.
 
#41 ·
I just got back from Iraq a few weeks ago.

I agree with the magazine comments. Lowest Bidder is not the way to go.

The dust over there is no differant than driving around at Ft. Hood. It's not magic dust, it's just dirt and dust, like any other dusty sucky place. Anybody who has been around tanks and Bradleys knows what I'm talking about.

We had more problems with our Humvee's than we did with M4's. On our down days we would go out and "test fire" our M4's, just to put some rounds through them, and had very few problems. My weapon would be dirty after coming back from a mission and it would still fire. 90% of our time was spent on keeping our trucks running. I had more confidence in my M4 than I did my own truck.

Don't get me wrong, I would have dumped my M4 for an HK M416 in a heartbeat, but any weapon will fail if not taken care of.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Rikoshay. Great too see you back. God bless you and thanks for serving. :salute:
Our M16s in Nam we still had the 20 round clips. The old timers told me to only put 19 rounds in my mag or it would jam. O.K. sounds good to me.
They put me on a chopper. Dropped me off on some hill in God knows where with no ammo, no cleaning equipment, no sight in of the weapon, no freaking idea of what the hell I was doing. HMM. This is gonna be fun. Oh yeah.
The next morning I was on patrol with my new found friends, yeah right.
Hey you guys don't mind me asking like a dumn question "Uh who the hell am I supposed to be shooting??" HAA HAA Ha you FNG if you don't like the son of a bitch kill him. HAA Haa. Holy S$%^#T Gezz Mom where are you when I need you.
My buddy was a Marine and they dropped him off in the middle of a battle with NO weapon. Told him to find a dead Marine and use his. He don't need it no more.
Only once in 12 months can I remember cleaning my M16. It never failed me. Even without cleaning it. It was not that we didn't want to clean them. We got dropped off in the jungle and stayed there for 12 months. Plus no one gave us cleaning equipment.
For that I rate the 16 good. For stopping power yuk doo doo nah. Our troops need a better round.
 

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#45 ·
Well you guys must sure as hell be doing something rite over there, cause all our liberal press keeps talking about is the "Iraq War."
If the stories are true. It only took a few hundred of our "Kick Ass" bad to the bone Special Ops guys with the help of air power. To send the Taliban packing and heading back to there dung holes. :notworthy:salute:
Now we know there back and causing trouble.
The only reports on Afganistan we get from our liberal commie *** press now is when something goes fubar over there and our troops get chopped up.
Send us stories, please if you can, without getting in trouble.
I repeat. Our present Military is the "BEST" this country has ever put together. God Bless All our Troops. Be Safe. 4th.

Nam Vets support our Iraq Bros. This buds for you.
 

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#44 ·
not a professional soldier, but the m16a-2/ar15 is a kick ass weapon!!! ilove it. uber accurate,even compared to someof the newer, more expensive bullshit rifles avail from various other countries and manufacturers. this is the last of the "cowboy rifles" imo.
this is still defining the us militaryand the us fighting soldier across the globe-like it has for almost 50 years!!
other countries as well as newer,re-vamped versions ofthis rifle are rampant, butthey are all still built from E Stoners original receiver design.
where m.Kalashnikov got simplicity and reliability right, E.Stoner got accuracy and longevity right.
thisweapon has earned its stripes many times over.

backon the subject, i was at a wedding in CT this past weekend and goton the subject with an army weapons training specialist, he mentioned to me that he served 4 years in and never saw the local ,militia having their ak rifles replaced with western armaments.
he specifically trained the iraqis to use their weapons, etc.

this may just be his limited scope of knowledge...i didnt know the fella, but he had the knowledge . MOS and info that made me beleive that he was legit?
 
#50 ·
Leadhead.



Here is a closer pict. of those boobs for yah. Now P.T. Durn blast you this is for troop moral. So you leave this pic. alone. :nono:
I'll send yah better picts. later. :biggrin:

Think you guys got it bad in Afghanistan. Huh. Look at this dog I picked up the other night at the bar. Damn.
 

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#49 ·
Yeah, this weapon has been thru the ringer a few times.
I also think that we overlook the fact that our fighting men and women are trained WELL on this weapon and KNOW what to do if disaster strikes in the form of a jam or hangfire, etc.
Any weapon in the hands of WELL trained combatants is ALWAYS the most lethal factor. Hell, alot of these guys could have sharp sticks and the enemy would still be hurting!
 
#51 ·
i was issued a m-16 when i first got to vietnam, nov 67, worked ok for me, but i picked up a ak-47 from a young guy that wasn't going to need it any more ( tet 68). ( long story made short, he had 3 rounds in his pocket and the rifle was still full of cosmolene.) i quit carring the m-16 and carried the ak and an m-79 the rest of my tour. i kept the m-16 cleaned and ready just in case. nothing wrong with it, but i like the confusion it caused when they thought there own buddies were shooting at them. i was on a 9 man mobility team that operated a "operational landing" yep, an air force guy. a couple of pictures of our weapons. a couple pictures of captured weapons. firefight on the airfield. last one is me, early morning after all night time fire fight.
 

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#53 ·
Great info guys, and great to have you guys back from the sandbox. I was a "cold-warrior"('81-'89) and never saw combat but I did put alot of rounds down range. I always hated the fouling in the receiver and thought that was a dumb place for someone to design it to go. Funk blowing in amoungst all them moving parts just didnt seem like a good idea. I think the gas piston uppers are a step in the right direction,altho some will disagree.
 
#54 ·
I was attached to the 82nd in desert storm and we had the A2. With a lot of vietnam vet's still in when I joined (80). I took there advice and guidance. First chance, I picked up a AK (Still had cosmoline)for a backup. I never had a problem with the A2, and was lucky never had to use the backup.
And a THANK YOU... for all who are still serving and in harm's way,
 
#55 ·
Sarge Ron.

Wow can't believe this post is still going, cool.
4th C.co. 3/12 R.V.N. 68-69. II corps.
The guy in the left of this picture is a "Dustoff Medic" Fred Hughes. He did only recovery on downed aircraft. Two tours.
The guy too the right is Air force Rescue. John Henniger. Also on call for downed pilot rescue Nam. Myself and John knew each other as kids in Connecticut. Do you recognize him or does that name sound familiar?
I watched your "Insane" Air Force Para Rescue boys jump out of a helo recently down at Patrick A.F.B.. They jumped about a mile out into the ice cold river. :drown::scared:
Thought the boat would be rite there too pick them up. They swam to shore. I almost called the humane society for cruelty too humans. :) Damn those kids are tough.
The early 16s had a lot of jamming problems, mine did not. Think it was the powder they used but I am not sure.
I welded my selector on "Full Auto" and she always seemed to keep ticking.
 

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