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M16s Nam. Now Iraq. ??

8K views 54 replies 23 participants last post by  4thIDvet 
#1 ·
:salute:
Talking to my neighbor yesterday. He is a Viet-Nam vet Marine. He was early Nam and was one of the unlucky Vets to get the "Bad" M-16s that were shipped over there.
I guess the horror stories were true about jamming and doing bad things when needed.
Mine, a later issue, never failed me. It always went bang when I pulled the trigger.
We have a lot of Iraq vets joining the site. :salute:
Are these weapons working for you guys in the Sand Box??
I see pictures of the special ops guys and a lot of them seem to be carrying AKs.
What is up with the M16 over there???
 
#2 ·
My first experience in using an M16 was in BUDS training, class 49 in 69. It was a steralized
gun left over from the Kennedy misadventure in Cuba I was told. As long as I kept it clean
it worked fine. The ammo made the difference, some of it was almost as bad as black powder. I think we got better ammo because it was always getting wet in training. As long as it was used up in a few days, it would work after being dunked in fresh or salt water.
 
#3 ·
My first experience in using an M16 was in BUDS training, class 49 in 69. It was a steralized
gun left over from the Kennedy misadventure in Cuba I was told. As long as I kept it clean
it worked fine. The ammo made the difference, some of it was almost as bad as black powder. I think we got better ammo because it was always getting wet in training. As long as it was used up in a few days, it would work after being dunked in fresh or salt water.
Frogman. Not to change the subject. But I am going down to the Viet-Nam vets reunion. Patches, Gallager and the whole crew of you guys shows up there. P.M on the way.
 
#4 ·
I never had a problem with mine over there...always went bang when it was supposed to, and never jammed. I cleaned it every day (sometimes twice or more) with compressed air, never lubed it, and it slept in my sleeping bag with me. We learned quickly that CLP+sand=concrete/abrasive slurry. We actually had to put on butt down on the ground and stand (jump, kick, hammer, etc.) on the charging handle to get it open. After that, they went bone dry.
 
#5 ·
Welcome Home

I never had a problem with mine over there...always went bang when it was supposed to, and never jammed. I cleaned it every day (sometimes twice or more) with compressed air, never lubed it, and it slept in my sleeping bag with me. We learned quickly that CLP+sand=concrete/abrasive slurry. We actually had to put on butt down on the ground and stand (jump, kick, hammer, etc.) on the charging handle to get it open. After that, they went bone dry.
God Bless our Iraq Vets. :salute:
Interesting. Thank you. I kept hearing conflicting reports. Pro and con.
Like I say, mine always worked fine. Even with very few cleanings.
Hell they did not even give us cleaning kits. Go figure.
 
#6 ·
The good buddy of mine (sitting right next to me at current time) is a marine, and he did three tours in Iraq. I read him your post and this was his response.

"The M-16 and the M-4 will work in the thick of the s*** if you keep them clean. A dirty weapon with tight tolerances is going to be prone to jamming. But the ss109 and black hills ammo that they are using over there has been designed to run in the M-16s and that has eliminated many of the problems associated with that operating system.

The reason you see the AKs in use, is because in CQ scenarios, they are just better suited. When clearing a house the short barrel, heavier projectile, and fully automatic capability are better than the M-16 with it's longer barrel, lighter projectile, and three round burst. The weaknesses of the AK are not apparent in the ranges encountered in house clearing, and those of the M-16 are.

The M-16 is much better suited for an open battlefield (as in the open desert etc), it allows you to engage opposition before they come into their effective range. The AK is just better in close quarters."

And that sir, is straight from the horse's mouth.
 
#7 ·
Wow. Interesting. Tell the Marine I said Welcome home. :salute:
I keep watching these shows on T.V. and seeing re-enactments of shoot outs over there and the 16s jamming. So this is interesting input you guys are giving.
 
#8 ·
I keep watching these shows on T.V. and seeing re-enactments of shoot outs over there and the 16s jamming.
It's because the blanks they use get the rifle dirty :bleh:.

Seriously though, if you're out on a patrol, you put 100-150 rounds (alot, but not unheard of) through it without a chance to clean it, it's more likely to jam. Add sand, and you've got yourself a very expensive cudgel.
 
#11 ·
Everything I've read about the Vietnam issues weren't due to the weapon itself per se... many if not most of the issues were due to misinterpretations of the "self cleaning gas system" evolving into "gun that never needs cleaning".

I also read that a huge issue was when *someone* decided a different gun powder was better than what the manufacturer specified, and so the recipe was changed. The result with the aforementioned "never needs cleaning" FUD was a large number of fouling-related issues and jams.

Put that smack in the middle of the "bigger is better" mindset at the time which built strong resistance to such a profound change and you'll understand why the issues arose.



Now, what I would like to know is how many of those reports from Somalia are true:

- takes multiple hits to knock down the "skinnies"
- doesn't effectively penetrate the mud huts
... etc.


And what of the Iraq stories we've all probably heard about soldiers having jams during combat - are they all due to poor cleaning habits? Really? Remember that's what allegedly caused that one female soldier (forget her name now) that was all over the news to get captured... gun was jammed and she couldn't fight.
 
#12 · (Edited)
My M4 hasn't jammed. As long as the inside stays clean and dry, no problems so far. We that are infantry take care of our weapons a lot better than other MOS's.

Some of the Iraqi's are using M16's now. We pulled out of Baghdad a few days ago and saw a pickup truck stuffed with IA's (Iraqi Army) and they all had M16's.

It's not really sandy where I'm at, it's more like clay. You find a lot of sand further south down around Bucca and the Kuwait border. After every convoy we have to wipe down the dust, but that's about it. It does get very dusty, just like Ft. Hood or any other post where you're moving a lot of vehicles on gravel roads. Not much differant.

We got ambushed a week ago on our way back from Bucca (heading north) by about 12 guys with AK's and an RPG. Our M2's quickly took care of that. The idiots set up their ambush on the inside of the curve, and we had 4 gun trucks with 50's instantly fire back. It was over in a matter of seconds. We didn't stop, just kept on rolling. Nobody hurt on our side.
 
#13 ·
Rikoshay. WOW.

Damn good to hear from you. Keep your head down and go full auto.:biggun: LOL.
Really. Good to hear you are doing O.K.
Please stay in touch and tell the guys over there. "We support our troops.":salute:
What do you guys need you can't get over there. P.M me you address and I will ship. What ever the hell ya need it's on the way.
Wow. Have not heard from you in so long I was just trying to remember your name the other day.
Stay in touch please. 4th.
 
#14 ·
hcpookie

My sargent shot a deer one time. One of those small Asian deer. Hit it square in the chest from about 40 yds. M-16 .223. Wham. I saw the hit.
Damn thing could not have weighed 60 pounds. Down. Wrong.
Deer stood up. Looked at us and said "That all you got." WTF. Holy S#@$T.
And I'm supposed to shoot people with this. :help:
We never did find the deer. It headed for the hills.

Word I got from the Somalia vets is the Somalia troops were whacked out on some kind of stimulant that a .44 mag could not stop them.

Is the .223 working?? Best let the younger vets tell us I guess. Maybe they have a better bullet now. I don't know.
 
#21 ·
Word I got from the Somalia vets is the Somalia troops were whacked out on some kind of stimulant that a .44 mag could not stop them.
The substance is khat. Popular in eastern Africa. It's like a bush or tree they cut into sections and chew on. Hard to describe but its effect is like a stimulant and hallucinogen.

They start chewing on the twigs in the morning and by afternoon they're really agitated and looking for trouble, usually popping off their AK's or whacking each other with machettes.

That's one of the problems with the Blackhawk Down deal. It occurred when the A-wipes were at the height of their agitated state. Don't know about the 44 mag angle but people that are A-wipes by disposition plus whacked out do not respond to pain stimulus like "normal" people.

Last night I was watching one of those police video shows. A very enraged and stocky build guy with a shotgun took a hit in the shoulder from a 308 at 110 yards. The bullet glanced off the shotgun barrel and obviously hit him in the right shoulder. The guy fell down but bounced right back up. He surrendered a day later.

When people are psyched out and/or full of adrenaline all bets are off.
 
#15 ·
Hi 4Th,

I'm an "in the middle" Vet. Served from 1981 until 1991.

I was a Ranger 1st, then Air Force....Long story.

I went to Grenada, and I fired 12 shots total.

While in the Air Force, I went EVERYWHERE! I saw more shit than most Vietnam Vets, well, I guess that is subjective....

Seriously, In the Philippine Islands, I had no issues with my issue XM-177; that is the 11.5" version of the Colt Commando with the long flash suppressor and the collapsible stock. And that weapon got some real use.

Went to Saudi Arabia for G-1, saw no use at all, but fired often; I am proud to say that I expended many thousands of U.S. taxpayer dollars on ammo. Same weapon, since all of my deployments were TDY. Had some serious issues with short stroking. Learned quick to ditch the LSA and use graphite. I got really fast at breaking the weapon open and doing a quick brush, wipe and douse with dry lube. The dust gets into EVERYTHING!

Bottom line on the M-16 system:

1. Accurate as any issue MBR, and in most cases, more accurate than the soldier who operates it.
2. The Gas system just sucks. Very difficult to clean, and grows funky dirt everywhere. Also causes the bolt-carrier group to heat up very fast and very hot. Steel does not expand too much, but aluminum does.
3. The original M193 55gr. ammo works very well for anti-personnel. It tends to tumble when it hits a target, especially "fleshy tissue". SS109 is great for distance, and it penetrates well. For CQB it is just not as effective. Try this; shoot a watermelon at 100 meters, it will explode as only a melon can. Now do it again at 5 meters. Clean hole. This is a Jihadist at 100 meters, DOWN. This is a Jihadist at 5 meters, who just shot you back. The M-16 needs a bigger, heavier bullet. IMHO, something around 6.6mm and 105 grains. Same case size, same powder load.
4. Take a look at the Enfield L1A1; It has "sand cuts" on the sides of the bolt carrier to ensure that sand, dust and grit have somewhere to go. That rifle works well in these conditions. The Israelis didn't introduce this feature until after the war in 1967. If the M-16 bolt had "sand cuts" or some other similar feature, it would not have as many issues. Better yet, redesign the upper to be like the AR-180.....End of story.
5. If the diameter of the gas tube was increased to 5.56mm and a jag was issued to allow a soldier the ability to dunk the muzzle end o
f the barrel into a canteen cup and run the a jag up and down through the gas tube, there would be far fewer gas related issues. Better yet, change over to a captive piston design and eliminate all of the gas, heat, and fouling issues all at once.
6. I think a 17 inch barrel is the right length. I have no imperical data to support this. But I can hit targets at 500 meters, and knock holes through cinder blocks as well at that distance.

I like the M-16 system but it needs an overhaul.

Best wishes to all,

Bellson:headbang:
 
#17 ·
Great info and feedback on the weapon. Thank you guys. Damn. I keep putting posts up and forgetting where the hell I put them. But info provided was and is very very interesting. :thankyou:
 
#18 · (Edited)
i have all ways thought the m-16 series needs an overhaul as well.

the dust and sand problem, the burned powder in the breech , the some-what underpowered round. although i have killed a few deer with it under 200m i find it don't have enough beans for a combat round at extended range. sure you can get hits with it at 500-600+meters but it takes a bit to long for the bad guys to stop shooting. the mags are another problem--even the best are fragile. the best 5.56 rounds the mk-262 helps some but it wears out the action and barrel pretty quick when the heat is on. the 6.5 grendel and 6.8spc are a partial answer.-better round but punishing when loaded fully and the heater is on high. you still have the flimsey mags and gas venting into the breech.- 7.62x39AR would be the same.

maybe a longer round than the 6.5 grendel or 6.8spc say around 45-48mm in 6.5 for long range punch at around 2800fps or so at the muzzle --remember this round also has to work in a LMG--give supersonic speed all the way out to 1000m with a 109-to 130g bullet. a short rod piston system like a FN_FAL or a long rod system like an AK would do wonders. 18 or 16inch barrels for the standard rifle. the PRM-would carry a longer version with better optics about 20inch on the barrel. it wouldn't hurt to have a fixed extractor too.

so what were talking about new weapon system--ammo--mags rifles and LMG's to extend range and firepower while taking a minimal hit in weight and numbers of rounds.

a new ballgame.
 
#22 ·
A good friend of mine is a USMC Veteran of OIF I and OIF III. He also fought in the intensive battle for Fallujah.

He said the fighting in Fallujah was the worst he's ever encountered, and possibly some of the worst fighting in Iraq throughout this whole war! We've been good friends for almost 2 years now, and he talks about his tours in Iraq all the time.

He told me their entry 'Stack' was typically composed of a 4 man entry team - followed by others. The first 4 men in were armed with:
1.) M-16, Remington 870 Pistol Grip (Breeching), and M-9.
2.) M-16, & M-9. (My buddy)
3.) M-249, & M-9.
4.) M-16, & M-9.

In his ENTIRE TIME over there, he's only had ***ONE*** malfunction with his M-16. He said they were in Fallujah, fighting through the city, door to door, street to street, killing just about everybody with a gun. He said he had fired between 400 to 500 rounds in a ~20 hour gun battle. He carried 14 M16 mags, plus 1 in the rifle (And 5 M-9 mags). After those ~20 hours of fighting, it was daylight again, the insurgents 'settled down' a while, so they all hunkered down in some shade behind two M1A1 Abrams tanks. He said everyone just quickly decided to resupply their ammo & water, quick chow down an MRE entre & take a quick nap. That was the ONE TIME that he didn't clean his rifle between firefights!

Shortly after noon, later that day, he said they were awoken by mortars walking in on them, so they all scrambled up, and moved out FAST. They spotted the mortar guys, they ran under a fence into a housing block. They surrounded the block, and started going door to door. He mentioned when they kicked a door in, he was 2nd through the door, a man on the far side of the room walked through the doorway with an AK. My buddy fired a burst, **BANG BANG** -CLICK- He had to transition to his M-9 pistol, and both he, and another guy in his squad (with an M-249) finished off the insurgent.

He had to take a spot further back in the 'stack' (switched w/ #4 in line) since they didn't have time to stop and fix his rifle - so he kept clearing rooms with his M-9. :( He said he'd never had a more naked 'oh shit' feeling like that in his entire life - and likely won't ever since!

He said it seemed like there was at least 1 insurgent or more per building they entered on that block. And he didn't have a working rifle! He said the only guns that went down (due to dirt / lack of maintenance) MORE than the M-16 was the M-249 SAW! He said the 249 in his squad repeatedly jammed, and wouldn't cycle... Called it a total P.O.S.! Most of the Civilians fled Fallujah before the Marines entered - so most of the 'insurgents' in the city were actually Syrians - not Iraqis.

After clearing those buildings on that block, some other guys provided security while they took a quick 20 minutes for everyone to strip down their guns, and clean them in the field. Both the M-249, and his M-16 jammed that day. Ever since then, the FIRST THING he did during down time was clean his rifle! THEN resupply ammo & water, and THEN eat something before getting rest! He NEVER had a single problem with his M-16 after he re-prioritized, but likewise, he NEVER trusted it 100% ever again, and was always weary of having another 'oh shit' moment! He also started carrying a minimum of 7 pistol mags plus one in the gun because you never know HOW LONG you might wind up relying on your secondary.

The poor bastard with the M-249 SAW kept having intermittent problems through the whole deployment though. For a while the SAW gunner also picked up and slung/carried a PPSH-41 Submachinegun and a few drums as a backup incase his SAW went down. After the battle of Fallujah, he was ordered to turn in the PPSH so they could crush it under the tracks of an Abrams. :(

On the positive side, he said the guy in his platoon lugging the FN M-240 7.62 MMG hardly EVER cleaned his gun (just squirt some oil in once in a while), and that sucker kept running through the whole deployment like a champ through countless rounds. Said it was a heavy bastard to carry, but it was one of the most dependable guns they used besides the mounted Browning M-2.
 
#23 ·
Yup, Khat was like raw opium and would turn your teeth brown after using. These guys would sit around and chew it at dusk and go crazy.
Read "blachawk Down" by Mark Bowden. AN EXCELLENT book!

I suppose it makes sense to arm the iraqi's with A2's. I mean, we've always give countries our older or soon to be phased out arms. tiawan got a BUNCH of our destroyers in the 1990's, in an effort to keep China away(that didnt work)
Iraq got alot of our f15/f16 fighters in the 1980's(proved worthless during the 1st Gulf war).
so why not let them have an older rifle, when out soldiers will have a more modern, more reliable and possibly, more lethal weapon than the A2 or M4?
 
#24 ·
Interesting

The M-16s in Nam were passed down from man to man as they were rotated home. At least that is how my unit worked. You did not bring your weapon back to the states with you.
Most of them were, well, not exactly new looking if you know what I mean.
We were not even issued cleaning kits.
Now you have me wondering if, from use and abuse, if the tolerances loosened up and made them function better.
Mine never jammed. Put a clip in and the old beater would rock and roll every time.
Was it accurate. Hell I don't know. You could very seldom see what the hell you were shooting at. But the old boy worked everytime.
My buddies nephew was over there and he carried an AK. Kept his 16 but his seargent let him use the AK. He collects them here in the states and wanted to use that instead of his 16.
The M-60s, from my experience of watching them in action, worked pretty darn good.
On my recent trip to the Orient. I saw a lot of the old style M-16s the military was still using.
I guess where I am going with this. Does wear and use make them better??
If so, why don't they factor that in when there building the damn things.
Like the time proven AKs we collect.
These are great stories from you guys, on the pros and cons of the weapons.
Keep the stories coming. Thank You.
 
#25 ·
I forgot to add... My buddy also said that his squad used almost EXCLUSIVELY Militec Oil in their guns.

They'd clean their guns 'White Glove' spotless with a Nitro Solvent of some type, and THEN they'd lube the heck out of their bolt carrier, upper, and even a drop on the trigger assembly.

Then they'd usually (carefully) heat up the oiled parts with a paint remover gun or else just fire three mags through the gun as fast as they could (then re-clean the gun again). They'd do that at least once a week to keep the Militec 'dry lube' thoroughly bonded to the metal. Then they never had to worry about the oil attracting dust/sand when going door to door, or when trailing Aamtracks in a convoy. Some for added 'protection' some put Tan/OD duct tape around the Delta-Ring area of their uppers to keep dust from getting in through the '+' Cross shaped gas tube opening in the upper and some didn't because they thought that would increase the likelihood of dirt getting in there (sticking to the tape).

Basically all of our soldiers have their own individual 'superstitions' regarding the maintenance of their weapons, but typically they all kept in line with what was being done & recommended by everyone else at their platoon/squad levels.

Wear & Use doesn't necessarily make them 'better' though. It does loosen up the tolerances, and eventually the headspacing. What is often ignored by most people are regularly recommened / scheduled 'Maintenance Intervals' where springs, extractors, cam pins, firing pins, gas tubes, and gas rings, and other 'Wear' parts are replaced every so many thousands of rounds.

Armorers usually do a good job of replacing those parts every time a rifle comes in for service (just as a precaution), and they often will re-stake bolt carrier gas keys 'just to be sure' as well.

I know two current .mil Armorers (1 Army / 1 Nat Guard) and they said the most common issues are with these parts:
Gas Tubes & Gas Rings (Wearing Out)
Bolt Cam Pin (Wearing/Cracking)
Extractors & Springs (Wearing/Breaking/Caked in Dirt)
Firing Pins (Wearing Out)
Springs (Wearing Out)

Those are things that can be noticed / caught by soldiers during normal cleaning & inspecting.

The parts are INEXPENSIVE to keep spares on hand, so it is suggested most gun owners keep a set on hand at all times in a 'repair kit' of some sort. I've had to replace a gas tube, and gas rings, as well as a cam pin that started cracking.

If you're one of those guys who makes claims "I've NEVER cleaned my gun fer 8000 rounds!!!" Well, I suggest cleaning it, because it's not ONLY done to keep carbon from building up, but it's also done to allow you a chance to inspect parts for signs of unusual wear, cracking, or breakage points - so you can replace the parts PROACTIVELY before a problem does develop. Thereby keeping your gun running 100% of the time.
 
#26 ·
My oldest brother-in-law was in the 25th ID in the Iron Triangle. He loved the M16 so much that he fulfilled a dream a couple years ago and bought one. He said his company cleaned their 16's every evening ... get this....without being told!! Not the stereotype some people have of draftees in VN. But then some units lacked discipline and a good example of one is in General Schwarzkopf's book.
Any rate my B-i-B says neither they (his company) did not experience the "failures" of the M16 but they had proper cleaning supplies PLUS daily cleaning was stressed in training.
 
#28 ·
Tell your oldest brother-in law I said welcome home. :salute:The darn problem was we were not issued cleaning supplies. It goes without question that a clean weapon is going to work better than a dirty one.
Some units had the chance to be in a position to clean there weapons, others did not. You sure did not want to break down your weapon and start cleaning it out in ***** country.
Did not read Schwarzkopf's book, but the unit you are speaking of is the "Americal" hope I spelled that correct. Yes when the Gen. took over the unit, moral was not too good.
The enemy had entrenched themselves in an area protected by mine fields. When he took over they told him this. "Why hell, we will just charge in and kick there ass." O.K.
To the Gens. credit. He went in with the guys. Correct me if I am wrong but that is where he was awarded the Silver Star for running into the mine field under fire to save a wounded trooper.
Wish we had more leaders like him.
 
#27 ·
i read somewhere that inthe early rollout of the m16 rifle, the rifle was rumored to be so futuristic, that it did not require cleaning. thus, nobody cleaned them and they would fail in combat.
M Kalashnikov was a genius, but so was E Stoner. he designed a multitude of weapons in cluding the m16 and the first truly modular weapons system that the US arsenal saw back in the 60's.
The man essentially did what kalashnikov did for the AK.

his weapon design has projexted the power and image of the for the past several generations
US military-the m16a2 and the M-4
 
#29 ·
i have run the m-16 series for most of my time. it is a bit "tweeky" but good ammo, good mags and proper care make it reliable.

the AK is more reliable, its ammo a bit more powerful--but it is a very old design. certain things the soviets did with it to save pennies can be fatal in combat.

the overly long & curved mags make it clunkey and make it hard to get dirt-sucking low in the prone.

the safety & semi-auto selector is a bad idea--you can hit semi-trying to put it in auto and can also hit auto when your trying to go semi--

no provisions for optics except the side rail--which mounts optics like night-vision scopes way up in the breeze--like shrapnel catching breeze--

lastly 7.62x39 ammo besides being dirty makes for a hellish muzzle flash --not on every shot--but every so often. this flash is tolerable during day time ops--but can be fatal to the user at night--where we were the most active.

since i got out i have a small collection of semi-auto AKM's that i have built along with some semi-auto m-4 clones, xm-177 clones ect.

any design has to have a few problems.

anytime a new design comes out--it will have some serious growing pains. whatever replaces the m-16 & AKM will have its share.--
 
#30 ·
I recently asked a friend of who returned from the combat zone(Iraq) his thoughts on the M16/M4 and the Iraqi's. He's an MP and his unit runs convoy escort and roadblocks and such,I'll have to ask him where they were, anyhow he didn't have any failures with his M16 but his roomate did. He'd been out in the dust all day. Then they were taking fire. He shouldered up and bang, bang, malfunction. Then according to the roomate he squirted some CLP and went back to firing. I'll have to ask him if his roomate elaborated on the nature of the malfunction.
I also asked him about his thoughts on the Iraqi's and the M16's. He was very plain that he felt the Iraqi's couldn't keep one running for long, the Iraqis' he observed would only occasionally clean their AK's by dunking them in gasoline. As far as the M9 he's not a fan, but the funny thing he told me was the Iraqi police were trying to trade him their Glocks for his M9. He told me they obviously didn't know about the "lowest bidder" concept, and assumed if the Americans were carrying it it must be the "shit".
 
#31 ·
A Platoon from our company went on patrol "68 and spotted about a dozen V.C. taking a swim. They were about 200yds away and they opened up on them. When the V.C. came out of the water they were all buck naked.
The guys were trying to hit them but they started laughing at the site of naked men runnning every which way but loose. They left everything they owned behind. No hits but plenty of weapons and maps, uniforms etc.
Can you imagine what the V.C. commander said when they got back stark naked. :chinese::nono::lol:
They brought us back AKs, uniforms, helmets etc. I grabbed a complete uniform, pack, helmet and was able to get it back and mailed home. We had a great C.O. and he asked if anyone wanted the AKs. Couple of guys grabbed a few and were able to get them mailed home. I didn't want the damn full auto Russian?? junk AK. :bawling:
Within reason, mailing was easy then. Everyone was mailing stuff home. As long as you didn't get too stupid you could send stuff. Just mark helmets, dolls etc. on the package and it made it through.
So I just made contact with my sister after 15 years. Going to Connecticut and she says she has all my old Nam pictures. I'll see what is left, but I am sure I will have pictures for you guys of the weapons from over there.
Old junk Russian and Chinese AKs. Who the hell would want to save those damn old things. :dunno:
 
#32 ·
I was a Small Arms Repairman for the Army 69-72. Worked in a depot shop with 100 guys. I ran the testfire range. The early M16 problems were due to no cleaning equipment issues and ammo with too much preservative in it. Crudded up the rifle quickly. These problems were quickly solved. The original guns had standard steel barrels and the throat wore out quickly on full auto. The worn barrels tipped bullets badly and I think the legend of the "tumbling bullets" came from that. Clear sideways hits could be seen at 25 yard paper target. To correct this they added a stellite liner to the chamber that extended up into the barrel a ways. Around 1970 they came out with the chrome lined barrel. We always replaced the plain steel barrel when we found one. Magazines must be checked and replaced often. They are a bit fragile. Properly cleaned and lubed M16s worked well in the jungle. I dont know about dusty/sandy conditions.
The military went with the M16 for a number of reasons. One was that the troops did poorly with the M14 on the range. Out of some 220 guys in my basic trainning unit, fully half of them failed to get the 30 hits out of 84 targets required to qualify. They were afraid of the recoil. These same guys did a whole lot better with the M16. Another was weight. You could carry a whole lot more ammo with a lighter rifle and ammo. Cost was another factor. The Gov was paying 117.00 for an M16 and the M14 was 177.00. Ammo for the M16 was .07 a round and M14 ammo .17 a round.
 
#33 ·
I don't have as much action with it as many of the other posters do but I used it in G1 and Somalia and never had a problem. Lubed it with graphite. No malfunctions. Just a note for those that don't know, the sand in Iraq (what I was in) was more of a powder, like flower, than beach sand like we see here, gets in everything.

Got a buddy headed over in a few weeks, I'll have him keep me posted.
 
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