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Thread: AR-15 Pistol's legal???

  1. #21
    Gunco Rookie RV9Factory's Avatar
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    This subject is null and void at this time. The new 4473s have a check box for "receiver" now.
    What does this mean? Does it mean I can buy "receivers" (undesignated as to rifle/pistol) and build them into pistols? Does a multiple sale trigger the pistol multiple sale paperwork?

  2. #22
    BANNED nalioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RV9Factory View Post
    What does this mean? Does it mean I can buy "receivers" (undesignated as to rifle/pistol) and build them into pistols? Does a multiple sale trigger the pistol multiple sale paperwork?
    There is no law saying how many 'receivers' or 'long guns' you can buy at once.


    A virgin receiver can be built into a rifle or pistol, according to the law.

  3. #23
    Gunco Rookie RV9Factory's Avatar
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    Nalioth,

    How do I know the receiver I'm buying from my dealer isn't a stripped rifle lower he bought from the manufacturer? What if it is and he transfers to me an an "other"? Am I still in the clear if I buy a pistol?

  4. #24
    BANNED nalioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RV9Factory View Post
    Nalioth,

    How do I know the receiver I'm buying from my dealer isn't a stripped rifle lower he bought from the manufacturer? What if it is and he transfers to me an an "other"? Am I still in the clear if I buy a pistol?
    If you don't trust your dealer to sell what he says he's selling, find another dealer.

  5. #25
    Gunco Rookie RV9Factory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
    If you don't trust your dealer to sell what he says he's selling, find another dealer.
    It's not that I don't trust my dealer. I do trust her. I don't trust the ATF.

    My dealer ordered my lowers, but how is she supposed to know how the manufacturer has them booked? Is there a way for her to tell?

    The problem seems to be that there is a lot of confusion because of the new 4473. I'm not even sure she's seen it. She told me if I wanted to build pistols, she'd sell me the receivers as pistol receivers. So my impression is that she can sell them either way (pistol/rifle), but now there's this "other" category. I'd like to avoid a multiple sale form if I can. I ordered a number of receivers and don't want ATF up my butt.

    If we 4473 the lower as an "other", can I build a pistol and later sell it if I want to - or is it forever mine? What if I build as a pistol and diassemble - can I sell the lower as a pistol lower? If someone buys it from me can they build either a pistol or rifle from it?

  6. #26
    GuncoHolic kernelkrink's Avatar
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    OK, here are the essential basic elements of the regs and ATF policy.

    1: If a bare receiver has ever had a buttstock attached, it is a rifle. Even if it is removed, it remains a rifle receiver forevermore. One exception to this created by a Supreme Court ruling, explanation to follow.

    2: A bare receiver that has never had a stock attached can be made into either a handgun or a rifle.

    3: A handgun can be converted into a rifle by the addition of a buttstock, if the bbl is extended past 16" and the overall length exceeds 26" then it is not an SBR and is just a regular rifle.

    4: As long as an unlicensed individual originally builds a firearm for his own personal use, later selling it is legal.

    Back in the day, Thompson Center wanted to market a Contender handgun/rifle kit consisting of a Contender handgun frame, a buttstock, a short handgun bbl, and a legal length rifle bbl. ATF ruled that since the combo of parts COULD be assembled as an SBR, it was an SBR and had to be registered as such even if the buttstock and short bbl had never been assembled together on the frame. TC disagreed, so they paid the tax and registered one kit as an SBR, then sued for a tax refund as the combo had never been assembled as an SBR and therefore wasn't one. SCOTUS sided with TC and ruled that as long as the buttstock and short bbl were never installed at the same time, no SBR had been created. This in effect negated ATF's "once a rifle, always a rifle" stance for receivers since SCOTUS said it was allright to switch back and forth at will, provided the receiver started out assembled as a handgun.

    "Receiver" checked off on the 4473, direct from a manufacturer or distributer, should cover you for a handgun build. I don't see a manufacturer or distributer breaking down an assembled rifle to sell you a receiver, they would just grab one off the line before it was built or order it that way. Manufacturers such as NDS that only sell receivers and not complete rifles would be an obvious "virgin", however ATF does "recommend" one get confirmation from the maker of it's never assembled status. A manufacturer has to pay excise tax on complete firearms, so they have an economic incentive to ensure their bare receivers sold as such are never assembled in the factory.

    Once the receiver is built, handgun or rifle, it is no longer a virgin receiver. Selling it used at that point as a handgun receiver becomes a question of trust between the parties involved. That is one of the reasons some companies will factory mark their receivers "Pistol" or similar on them, to remove some doubt.

  7. #27
    Gunco Rookie RV9Factory's Avatar
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    Kernel -

    Thanks, that is exactly the answer I was looking for. Nalioth was trying, but each of his answers raised new questions!

    I appreciate it.

  8. #28
    Gunco Rookie TigerStripe's Avatar
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    Why are there only letters or emails from the ATF about such things and not a section on the ATF website. I'm not saying that they aren't genuine but a pronouncement on the ATF website would make everything a more certain.



    TS

  9. #29
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Manufacturers such as NDS that only sell receivers and not complete rifles would be an obvious "virgin", however ATF does "recommend" one get confirmation from the maker of it's never assembled status. A manufacturer has to pay excise tax on complete firearms, so they have an economic incentive to ensure their bare receivers sold as such are never assembled in the factory.
    CORRECT. NDS DOES NOT SEND YOU ANY THING EXCEPT A RECIPT SAYNG RECIVER WITH MODEL NUMBER. I ASKED THEM WHEN ORDERING THEM AND WAS TOLD HOW I REGESTER THEM IS UP TO ME AND THE DEALER. I HAVE BEEN REGISETRING MOST OF MY RECIVERS AS PISTOL AND DOCUMENTING IT AS A PISTOL BUILD EVEN IF THE BARREL IS 16" I CAN ALWAYS MAKE IT A RIFLE LATER AND GO BACK TO PITOL IF I CHOOSE SO.

    MY NEXT QUESTION IS THIS i HAVE TWO dpms NEW STRIPPED RECIVERS i BOUGHT AT A SHOW. I REGISTERD THEM AS RIFLE ON THE OLD FORM. CAN THEY BE REREGISTERD A RIFLE AS A PISTOL AS THEY ARE STILL VIRGIN OR AM I STUCK WITH THEM AS RIFLE??? IF THEY WER SOLD TO SOME ONE COULD THEY REGISTER THEM AS A PISTOL. WHEN I SHIP TO A FFL AS A NON DEALER DO I NEED TO PROVIDE ANY INFO AS TO THERE HISTORY?????

  10. #30
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    NEXT QUESTION IF I WERE TO BUY A STRIPPED RECIVER THAT WAS "ONCE" OR "MAY" HAVE ONCE BEEN ASSEMBLED (BUT HAVE NO HISTORY) ON A RIFLE HOW IS IT NOW REGISTERD ON THE NEW FORM?????? THE NEW FORM HAS A SPOT FOR STRIPPED RECIVER CORRECT??? WOULD THIS THEN BRING THE STATUS OF THE RECIVER BACK TO VIRGIN ????? EXAMPLE YOU FIND A MAUSER RECIVER AT A SHOW IT HS NO MARKINGS EXCEPT SERIAL NUMBER. YOU HAVE NO IDEA IF ITS VIRGIN COMMERCIAL OR WHAT ITS STATUS IS. YOU REGISTER IT AS A STRIPPED RECIVER. CAN IT BE BUIT AS A PISTOL NOW???? i DOUBT IT BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE NEW FORM NAY HAVE MADE THAT POSSABLE??? iF I WERE TO BE QUESTIOND AS TO MY BUILD THE PAPER WORK WOULD SHOW IT STARTED OUT AS A STRIPPED OR BARE RECIVER. hmmmm MY STATE REUIRES ADDITIONAL PAPER WORK FOR A PISTOL AS WELL SO THAT BARE RECIVER COULD BE CONCIVABLE BE REGITERD AS PISTOL yes no??????

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