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Shorty is in.

6K views 66 replies 13 participants last post by  j427x 
#1 ·
Thank you ProjectGuns for your help with the lower.
4 inch barrel.
1 in 20 twist.
5.56 caliber..
Pictured with a .45 Colt cartridge.
At least this barrel is marked, so I know what it shoots.
Range report coming soon. Any suggestions for a scope would be appreciated. Thank you. 4th.
 

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#39 ·
Well..

I am still not sure that is the complete problem. But I am slowly narrowing it down.
The C mags would not feed the damn thing.
The P mag fed it, then the hammer would not strike hard enough too fire the round. Click.
The tech from JSE told me too break it in. Fire at least 200 rounds through it too break it in. Then call him back. Nice guy he is, really.
Way things are going. By the time I get 200 rounds through this thing, I told him he would be retired. :)
Hitting the range today. This thing dont work. I will see if I can break my 120 foot record AK toss.
 
#40 ·
still lots of little niggley things on these super shorties that have to be sorted.

on a 11.5"-20" you got plenty of wiggle room to get things running.

on 7"s you margin for error is very thin in comparison.

first thing i would look for would be a leaky or loose key on the bolt carrier.

on the m16 bolt-carriers they would put on the blank adaptor and fire a dozen or so dirty-ass blanks to seal the gas key anytime they were using a new carrier key or had replaced the key.

that is kind of where the break in idea came from--ironically the carrier needs a little carbon to seal proper--go figure--LOL

i still think you'll need a Heavy buffer and i'll wager this is why the C-mags don't want to work. the bolt carrier is zooming by so fast the spring in the C-mag can't fully keep up.

the 20" AR type is like a truck motor and the 7" barrel super shorty is like a hopped up race motor-- it is more fiddely and requires a bit more tuning sort of speak--LOL

i have seen a few that ran well so it can be made to work.
 
#42 ·
Shorty. Lessons learned..

O.K. first I am a novice with these shorties. Hell I am a novice with the longies. :)
So me and tiny, my brother, hit the range yesterday and go for broke.
The range "Ocala gun" is pretty well marked. So it was going too work. Or a new gun whipping record was about too be officially set.
I brought 4 lowers, 2 uppers. 2 Rock River lowers, 2 Smith&Wesson.
Think their the same damn thing with a different name stamped on them.
- Hammer spring. Dont buy junk. Get a good strong one.
- Break in. As advised. These things have too be broken in. I sat for hours working the bolt back and forth. Back and forth. Fired it, cleaned it, lubed it, fired it. Bolt back and forth again. I could feel the kharma, the love, of everything wanting too come together, knowing its fate if it didnt.
- Magazines. "C" productus, not anti tilt. "P" mag with anti tilt. I guess you yougguns call it.
Ammo- Marked "Tula" and the other, that XM stuff.
We did a mix and match on loading the mags for testing purposes. Wanted both too work.
Results- 300 rounds with one stove pipe with the S&W.. Both the C and P mags worked flawlessly. I put a stronger spring in the S&W, but still feel I, definitely, need that more heavy duty one, BBill spoke of.
So I am guessing here. Break in, heavy spring for the hammer. The Rock River has the heavy spring "ProjectGuns put together" :cheers:
I guess?? Their is different qualities on the internals, hammers, springs. But it seems you get what you pay for. Buy quality. Especially that damn hammer spring. :frown:
These ARs, seem too be a lot more temperamental, on everything working together as versus the AK.
Accuracy- Well :) Us old guys hit the 4 foot square target at 50 yards. So we were happy. In the rite hands. With a younggun shootin. I would bet these things could be pretty darn accurate out too 100 yards or more.
Anyone else out their with shorties jump on in, please. I even made sure these were dirty when we took them for the test run. They still worked.
Thanks all for their advice and answering my novice questions.
My brother "Tiny" has a bad back. So I know I would have won the AR toss.
Thanks guys. 4th..
 
#43 ·
LOL 4th!

DID YOU SAY TULA????

holy shit batman-- i think we may have found the red herring!

if you got a batch as bad as the tula 223 i got from CTD that wouldn't run in anything reliable , even the 5.56 AK didn't like the stuff--

i don't think all of the tula is as bad as that batch, but i won't run tula in any iron i haven't tested and know it works right to start with so i can go straight to ammo if there is a problem.

the batch of tula 223 i got was very under powered , hell i had to pull the bullets and re-load the stuff with good powder to get it to run with to stop the stove-pipes.

had i not known my AR's were right that tula would have had me pulling my hair out! LOL!

i did buy some tula 45 acp recently it shoots OK but is dirty and some what under powered it has just enough push to cycle the OSS with the 18lb recoil spring --but no more. the stuff is right on the edge of not working--LOL
 
#44 ·
j4

When you buy a washing machine. 2 companies make the damn things.
T.V.s I think 1 company makes them, in China.
Bluejacks relatives.
Ford, Chevy. Hah. 1 company. Their just putting different names on the things.
- American Eagle Tactical XM193. Made in Minnesota. Yeah rite.
- .223 Rem. 55 GR. FMJ.. Comes in a kind of rich peoples looking box. Very fine print on the bottom, marked "Tula works Russia." So small I had too have my niece read it too me. Cute little girl. but she can see and read. Swears like a Sailor. But not when I'm around. :nono:
Sorry. But all this ammo is the same. Oh yeah.
They have 20 illegal aliens chained too a bench in Montana making this stuff. Little midget feeds and whips them. I have been allowed in the factory. Oh yes. I saw it.
Kinda sad. But hey. What the hell. I didnt tell them too sneak in our Country, sorry about their luck.
So you helped me. See. Now I am helping you.
Dont buy the rich peoples looking box. The expensive stuff. It is all the same commie crap.
Ever since I put 400 rounds through these ARs and learned how too take the bolt out.
I have become a Mall Ninja expert with them. Yup.
Think I will P.M. Gunco Bob and ask too start a new forum here.
"Just ask 4th and his drunk friends."
Myself and the drunks that visit here, do not have a question we cannot answer. It may not be what you want too hear. But we will answer.
Yes Sir. Trust us, will be our motto.
O.K.. Were ready for the next question. I think we covered the ammo issue fairly well.
Next question. Were ready. Shoot.
 
#46 ·
Very very good question.



No BBill. We have found the snapping technique is not favorable.
We have all watched the Olympics. You know those guys who toss that frizbie plate thing.
Watch them. Their good.
3 spins and a release. Arms must be locked and straight. Make sure the weapon is unloaded and grip the end of the barrel with both hands.
Most we can get is one spin, cause were drunk and get dizzy.
But oh yeah, she will fly. Most we could get was 120 feet. But you young guys shuold be able too get er out there.
Very good question.
 
#48 ·
american eagle made by tula in russia?

man the world has gone insane!--LOL

yea 4th as flaky as that batch of tula 223 was that i got from CTD i wouldn't doubt that the 7" super-short didn't like the stuff one bit.

i thought you had real US made m193 ammo--:confused:

if you have some of that serbian made ammo that AIM or Copes sells "hot shot"? or PPU match - the brass cases stuff in 69gr and your low pressure woes will be gone.

or find some real US made m855 or m193 mil surplus. it is still around thought i don't think wally-world has any--

PS don't toss it to the gators just yet!

besides you wouldn't want to throw your shoulder out like a friend of mine did!
 
#49 ·
No...

Not the American Eagle j4 that says made in Minnesota.
The .223 Rem is the Tula one. 55 grain FMJ..
Case it came in marked 5.56x45 on the outside. .223 Rem on the inside boxes.
Marked JSC "The Tula Cartridge Works" in very very tiny print on the individual boxes.
You really do need a microscope, too see the print. :lol:
I tried too avoid the Tula after reading your post.
Bought the case from Centerfire as .223 Rem. The sneaky devils never mentioned "Tula."
Like I say. My little niece spotted it.
"Uncle Tim. Whats Tula mean?"
WHAT? Give me that box you little. Sorry honey dont cry. Give me the box honey. Let uncle Tim look at it.
All the sites must have read your post. Now they are putting Tula in smaller and smaller print.
j4. You may have bankrupted the company. :nanabang: Ah their damn commies anyway. :)
The American Eagle shoots good. The Tula shoots, but about a foot high at 50 yards. Then a foot low.
Guess I will just aim them low. Then high. Eventually it will hit something.
 
#50 · (Edited)
well 4th if it will function on the tula-- that is about as low as you can go in the world of 223 ammo so it must be pretty close to "on the money".

yea thats how i got the tula 45acp from center-fire systems. it just said russian made 45 acp, hell i thought only wolf made the 45 acp so i ordered a half case -- 500 rounds.

so far the 45 seems a bit underpowered but it will cycle and function all my 45 pistols and dirty but it ain't all bad as at least it goes bang--so far----LOL

i figure on the 223 and 7.62x39 tula ammo that there were batches of bad ammo shipped. i was one of the unlucky ones that got a batch with bad powder.

others have had reasonably good luck with tula 223 and 7.62 so maybe their lucky.

i might still try another batch of tula one day but before i buy another i am sure going to look and ask around if any bad lots are being shipped--LOL


i don't care much for "lottery ammo" so next time when i see some bad ink , i"ll be paying attention, i don't want to get stung like last time!:crybaby::kick::nono:
 
#52 ·
j4. Good question.

I personally like the Russian people. Stalin went a little over the edge, when he killed 25 million fellow Russians, but we will leave politics out of this.
O.K. after consulting with the drunks here, we figured this one out.
The answer is vodka and the gulag.
Russians love their vodka. Their hot tired thirsty. Working in the ammo factory under miserable conditions.
Lunch whistle goes off. Now what do you think they are doing when they go outside for some air and a bite too eat?
Correct. Not water. Their hitting the old bottle. Now back too work.
They dont know if they put powder in those casing or sand. Their drunk as a skunk.
Now Ivan the boss comes along.
"I read j4 post on Gunco. This j4 ruin our product. Imperialist Yankee dogs. You put our company name Tula very small print on package. Or you go too gulag."
The poor workers have no choice. Obey, or the gulag.
Too import products into the U.S. they have too stamp where it was made.
Kinda like the old Jap trick from years ago. They named a town U.S.A..
So products shipped from the town were "Made in the U.S.A."
Russians caught on and put Tula in small print.
So next time your ordering ammo for your AR..
Flat out ask em. "Is this crap from that drunk Ruskie factory Tula?"
They have too give you a yes or no.
But good question. You helped me much with these ARs. Thank you.
I hope this helps with your future ammo purchases.
 
#53 ·
LOL 4th!

all i can say is try to find some good ammo and shoot the hell out of it!

i wish there was some of that golden bear still around it is from your favorite russian plant and is my favorite russian made ammo--when i can find it that is!

darn russians i think the shoot all the good stuff and have been shipping all the reject shit lately.

even the golden tiger 7.62x39 seems a little tame compared to what it was years ago--LOL
 
#54 ·
LOL 4th!

all i can say is try to find some good ammo and shoot the hell out of it!

i wish there was some of that golden bear still around it is from your favorite russian plant and is my favorite russian made ammo--when i can find it that is!

darn russians i think the shoot all the good stuff and have been shipping all the reject shit lately.

even the golden tiger 7.62x39 seems a little tame compared to what it was years ago--LOL
I like that Golden Tiger- Last time it was on sale I bought 1,000 rnds in 7.62 and 5.56!!!
 
#56 ·
Yes Sir...



It is eating everything. But I used the two NFA Rock River lowers with the stronger springs. That and breaking it in was the problem..
C mags P mags, their all working so far.
Me and my brother Tiny, talked too them on the way too the range.
"Either you guys work. Or we are going too set a new international record for AR tossing."
So I am not sure which it was. :confused:
But thanks for askin. So far so good.
 
#58 ·
No.. Thank you though. j4..



I am going to replace the whole innards. Lessons learned with these ARs.
Not like the AKs. ARs you most times get what you pay for, I guess?
I will get it whipped. :)
 
#60 ·
the good ones are $1.50

the cheap springs are $.020--LOL! the expensive recoil spring is $4 the cheap ones are $1-- which one went bad 4th? was it s hammer spring or recoil?

damn it 4th are you going to tell us where you got the weak springs? LOL!

i have been building these things for a couple years and have yet to find any bad springs in new parts--
 
#62 ·
Well both. One got a beating and one got a whipping. I always kept a good hammer around when I was building the AKs.
Watched some Arab guy in Uzbekistan build one from the ground up with just a hammer and anvil. Hell if he can do it with the education of a goat. Well hell so can I.
The Rock Rivers worked from the git go. So they didnt get a beating.
But the shorty uppers. Hell I dont even know what brand they are. They got the beating.
Damn bolt in them was so tight. I had too beat them too get them out. Used a rubber mallet so as not too scratch them any. But they finally gave.
No it wasnt that big spring in the stock. Guess they are good. Didnt have too beat them any.
It was that hammer spring, like I say, in the shorties got whipped. They were so weak they would not even make the firing pin move. Their in the canal.
Maybe I put them in backwards. Hell I dont know. Either way. I didnt like em so they flew.
So I guess you guys answer is. A little beating. New hammer spring, some oil and their shootin.
I dont know if I like these ARs. Kind of like a good race car. When there working rite, their a winner. When not. Their just a club.
If the night of the living dead ever came out of the swamp. Think I would grab the AK.
Did I answer you guys question. Yes their working. Least last time too the range. :confused:
 
#63 ·
the things that can cause an ar-bolt carrier/upper to be too tight are.

too tight a head space, grit or shavings in the barrel extension, really tight chambers combined with too much spring /O-rings in extractor.

but the one i run across most often is a bent gas tube--

so how does the gas tube look on super shortie?

it has to be straight were it comes through the upper and mates to the gas key on the bolt carrier. any kind of bend or kink is going to cause the action to be rough.

did you try another bolt carrier & bolt to see if there are any binds?

i am all ways a bit cautious about the inexpensive bolt carrier groups that ship with uppers that go for super sale prices.

i am sure it is just some piddle thing--just difficult to trouble shoot without it in my paws--LOL
 
#64 ·
j4..

No everything looks straight. I was wondering what that rod was sticking out.
I poured some lighter fluid in there and lit it. Must have cleaned out whatever was blocking it.
My Marine Gunny Bro showed me that trick. I kind of look up too him. He is almost like a rocket scientist.
Damn plastic caught fire but like a good Marine. He took off his shirt and we put the damn fire out.
We painted it with high temp. BBQ paint. Dont look all that bad.
But good info on the bolt. Glad too hear not just me they get stuck.
Yeah. We had too beat it in, then beat it back out with that handle thing sits over it with the mallet.
Stoner must have had the same problems we did. Guess that is why he put it there. :confused:
But like I say. So far so good. We will see next time at the range.
Bent bolt. Huh. Good thinking. I guess we straightened it out.
 
#65 ·
No everything looks straight. I was wondering what that rod was sticking out.
I poured some lighter fluid in there and lit it. Must have cleaned out whatever was blocking it.
My Marine Gunny Bro showed me that trick. I kind of look up too him. He is almost like a rocket scientist.
Damn plastic caught fire but like a good Marine. He took off his shirt and we put the damn fire out.
We painted it with high temp. BBQ paint. Dont look all that bad.
But good info on the bolt. Glad too hear not just me they get stuck.
Yeah. We had too beat it in, then beat it back out with that handle thing sits over it with the mallet.
Stoner must have had the same problems we did. Guess that is why he put it there. :confused:
But like I say. So far so good. We will see next time at the range.
Bent bolt. Huh. Good thinking. I guess we straightened it out.
have you got another bolt carrier and bolt assembly you can try in super shortie?
 
#67 ·
well 4th all the ones i have assembled with all new parts only one was real tight.


that one was a wilson barreled 7.62x39.

when there was no round in the chamber it would hand cycle fine.

if you put in a live round the bolt was very hard to pull back like it was binding up on something or trying to lock up even.

when i checked things out i found that this barrel has a very tight match chamber and all those extra mall ninja things like extractor 0 rings and extra power extractor springs was causing the binding.

if i had fired it in that condition it would have pulled the rim off the brass.

the cure was simple. just pulled the mall-ninja stuff off the extractor & ejector and put in stock GI stuff and it runs like a champ now.

so i have never had one that required a "break in" other than a few rounds to seal up/carbon up the gas key.


oil her up good and run the shit out of super shortie 4th!--LOL
 
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