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Anybody here tried Sabots in a 7.62X25 carbine?

2K views 22 replies 6 participants last post by  twa2471 
#1 ·
The reason I ask is I'm working on some different rounds. I made up some that will work in the PPS-43 magazine and some long ones that I made a special 30 M1 carbine magazine setup for. I first started in an old blowback AR Tok carbine I had and then decided to go to my DI operated Tok carbine when I did the M1 Carbine magazine thing since there was no ejector built into that. The DI Tok carbine functions like a champ with the Sabots without having to change anything like springs or buffer weights.
The picture below is of the two different types of rounds. The shorter ones on the left use 35gr Hornady bullets and 11.o grains of AA#9 and an over-all length of 1.36" -- they fit in the PPS magazines just fine. The rounds on the right use 55gr Sierra spire points and 11.3 grains of AA#9 with an over-all length of 1.57".

The picture below is of the M1 carbine magazine and adapter with a Sabot round in place. The bullet in that Sabot is an older type I was testing with -- a 50 grain Hornady moly V-max that is actually a longer bullet than the 55 grain Sierra spire point.

Loading these sabots takes a little extra work so they go in straight and don't get the plastic shaved. I've fired many rounds for function testing in the DI Tok AR but have not had a chance to get to the range to check if I can get any accuracy out of them. I was just wondering if any body here might have also tried the Sabots?
 
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#2 ·
I was thinking aof doing the same thing a while back when I read that they were very inaccurate. IIRC 1Biggun said he was getting something like two foot groups with them. Others had similar stories about not being able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn. Do some tests and let us know how they do. Maybe there's a sweet spot for velocity or twist rate.
 
#3 ·
I was thinking aof doing the same thing a while back when I read that they were very inaccurate. IIRC 1Biggun said he was getting something like two foot groups with them. Others had similar stories about not being able to hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn. Do some tests and let us know how they do. Maybe there's a sweet spot for velocity or twist rate.
I read the stories myself. I know one fellow that's trying them but in a rifle that has a twist rate that is not fast enough to stabilize longer bullets. At 50 yards he is getting 2" groups but at 100 yards it's more of a pattern not a group. He is stll shooting the rounds because he said it hits like a 22 hornet. There are some requirements that must be met to make these work and I hope I can get close with my Tok carbine. The twist rate is 1:10 so it should be able to stabilize the bullets -- if anything it might be a bit too fast for the length of bullet I'm using. the little 35gr bullets are going to be spun way too fast but for 50 yard use that should be ok. I don't have a chrony so I can't measure the velocity but it should be up there.
 
#4 ·
I've loaded those 35gr hornadys in a 223 and shot them out of 1-7", 1-8", 1-9", 1-12", and 1-14" twist barrels. They held up even with the 1-7" twist barrel and a max charge. The only one I shot for accuracy was the 20" 1-7" (my main coyote gun) and I was getting about 1.5" groups at 100yds on a calm day. The gun shoots better than that with heavier bullets, but 1.5" is more than good enough. I want to do a little bit more testing with the slower twist barrels to see if they work better. They are explosive when they hit something though! Here's the 35gr vmaxnext to a 50gr vmax.
 

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#5 ·
:lol::cheers:I tried Sabots back when they first came out and had piss pour results with them, but that was with a 3006 not pistol rounds so maybe someone could get better results than I did. The only reliable guns that I know that use them are MILITARY TANKS. I know my view is jaded but thats my experience.
 
#6 ·
I have used the sabots in my 50 hawkins for about the last 20 years. I know it's blasphemy to use sabots in a muzzleloader, but it allows me to shoot a heavier bullet with a higher BC faster than a round ball. I haven't noticed any loss of accuracy using them in the muzzle loader, and none of the deer have complained yet.
 
#14 ·
I may be wandering off topic a bit so please forgive me. Moleman, have you tried minie ball in your front end loader? I cast my own and they are the bomb. My .50 and my brothers .45 shoot them better than anything we have tried and the conveiniance of easy loading and no patch is a plus.
 
#7 ·
I'm just playing with the sabots to do something different with my 7.62X25 Tok carbine. Most of what I have read from people trying the sabots has been mixed. Some have had no accuracy and others have had acceptable accuracy. I just want to see if I can get the acceptable type accuracy out of the little carbine. I wish I knew what the magic procedure is to get these to work each time. I've just been very careful with inserting the bullets in the sabots and then inserting the sabots in the cartridges -- being sure they are as straight as I can get them. I wish I had the time to drive out to one of the ranges that's open during the week but I've got too many things going on right now to try to shoot for accuracy. I hope to be able to go in about 2 weeks.
 
#8 ·
I tried thim in a 7.62x39 and has poor results with 45 grain bullets, IM told and have read that you need to use heavier bullets to make them work. I plan some day to try some 69 grain bullets. the twit is not toi fast for the lighter bullets in fact a 1-10 is pretty good for a 45 or 50 grain .22 bullet.
 
#9 ·
I tried thim in a 7.62x39 and has poor results with 45 grain bullets, IM told and have read that you need to use heavier bullets to make them work. I plan some day to try some 69 grain bullets. the twit is not toi fast for the lighter bullets in fact a 1-10 is pretty good for a 45 or 50 grain .22 bullet.
I was wondering what rifle you were using -- was it an SKS or AK? Do you know what the twist rate is in the rifle you tried the sabots in?
 
#10 ·
I was wondering what rifle you were using -- was it an SKS or AK? Do you know what the twist rate is in the rifle you tried the sabots in?
IT WAS A ROMMY AK 47 WITH IM GUESSING A 1-10 OR SO TWIST LIKE MOST OF THEM.

THE TWIST RATE SHOULD BE FINE. AS MENTIONED MANY 223,S HAVE A 1-9 FROM THE FACTORY OR FASTER.

I THINK THE ISSUE IS THE SABOT NEEDS TO COME OFF CONSISTANTLY EVERY TIME.
TRY SOME HEAVIER BULLETS AND SEE WHAT THAT DOES.

THERE IS THE 22 REED THAT IS A NECKED DOWN X25 CASE. CHECK AND SEE WHAT THAT HAS FOR A TWIST RATE.

I WAS CONSIDERING TRYING TO CONVERT A TOKEROV M57 PISTOL TO A 22 REED OR SOME THING SIMULAR. WAS THINLING OF USING A BARREL LINER IN A FACTORY BARREL.
 
#12 ·
I was just thinking about your Rommy AK 47 and was wondering if you had any type of muzzle brake or flash hider on it --

NO IT WAS SHOT WITH NO MUZZEL DEVICE. IT SHOULD ALSO BE NOTED THAT THE GUN WILL SHOOT 1" GROUPS OR BETTER WITH HANDLOADS IN 7.62X39. NOITHING WRONG WITH THE GUN.

I DIDNT DO A LOT OF WORK ON THE THE SABOT LOADS I ONLY TRIED A FEW DIFFERANT LEVELS OF POWDER CHARGES AND ONLY SPENT ONE TRIP TO THE RANGE WORKING ON THESE. i ALREADY HAVE A 1/2" MOA 223 AK SO THERE WAS NO REAL NEED FOR ME TO DEVELOPE A VARMINT LOAD FOR THE X39. I DO HOPE TO RETRY SABOTS INT HE FUTURE FOR A FEW DIFFERANT RIFLES BUT I DONT EXPECT GREAT THINGS. I TIED IT BECAUSE I WAS HOPING TO SHOOT SOME LONG RANGE P DOGS WITH A FACTORY LOOKING AK TO PISS OF A FEW AR GUYS. IT JUST DIDNT WORK FOR THAT. I ENDED UP JUST SHOOTING THEM OUT TO 300 YARDS WITH A 7.62X39 AND A LOT OF RANGE FINDER WORK.

WHAT KIND OF ACCURACY DOES THE 22 REED YOU HAVE GIVE YOU?? ITS A NEAT ROUND BUT IT DOSENT REALLY DO ANY THING THAT A NUMBER OF BETTER AND CHEAPER ROUNDS TO LOAD ALREADY GIVE. WHAT IS IT FOR THAT A 223 WONT DO LOTS BETTER??? I THOUGHT A 17 CAL VERSION WOULD HAVE FILLED A NICH THAT WASENT UNTILL THE 17 FIRE BALL CAME ALONG.

A SUPER FAST 22 OR 17 TARGET PISTOL IN A AUTO LOADER WOULD BE COOL. ID LIKE TO CONVERT A M57 FOR SHORT RANGE VARMINT PLINKING.. A 22 MAG WOULD ALSO FIT THE BILL.

I MAY TRY SOME 75 GR AMAX BULLETS IN A SABOT ON A X39 CASE IN THE FUTURE. THAT WOULD LIKELY GIVE AROUND 3000 FPS OR SO. THE ISSUE IS IF IM SHOOTING .22 CAL AT ANYTHING IT NEEDS TO BE VERY ACCURATE OR ITS POINTLESS. I CAN HIT WHAT I WANT OUT TO 100 YARDS WITH A 7.62 ROUND AND IF A SABOT ROUND CANT GIVE ME ACCURACY AT LONG RANGE WHAT GOOD IS IT OVER THE 30 CAL. I DONT EAT VARMINTS OR PAPER SO I DONT CARE ABOUT THE .30 CAL DOING MORE DAMAGE. THE RECOIL DIFFERANCE IS NOT WORTH REALLY DEBATING AS ITS LIGHT ON EVEN THE X39. SO IF ITS NOT ACCURATE AND COSTS CONSIDERABLY MORE AND IS HARDER TO RELOAD WHAT IS THE POINT??

IF I COULD GET 1 MOA OUT OF A SABOT LOAD ID BE ALL OVER IT AS IT WOULD ADD VERSITILIATY TO A LOT OF MY GUNS. MY HUNTING PISTOL COULD BE USED ON BUNNYS OR SQUIRLS BUT IT HAS TO BE ACCURATE OR ITS JSUT A WASTE OF TIME MONEY AND AMMO. IT HAS TO OFFER A ADVANTAGE OVER THE ROUND IT REPLACES TO BE USEFULL IMOO.

HARD TO BEAT A 223 UNLESS YOUR SHOOTING IN THE BASEMENT OR SOME THING AND THEN I HAVE 10-22,S FOR THAT LOL.

I HAVE THREAD ON MY SABOTS ATTEMTS IN THE CALIBUR CONVERSION AREA HERE.
 
#13 ·
I was just wondering if there was a muzzle device on your weapon. Most people that try sabots don't mention how the loaded them, what the twist rate is on the barrel, how fast they were driving them -- just they didn't shoot worth a darn. The ones that do get them to shoot well will give a bit of a description of how they loaded them.

I've seen that comparison with the .223 and some other cartridges. There are a lot of cartridges that will work in the AR-15 and there are people that like them all. The 22 Reed Express can get some good velocity -- close to a 22 hornet -- and is much more quiet than the .223 especially out of a 16" barrel -- and I can shoot the same ammo in my modified CZ-52 pistol.

I will just be able to get to the range for the first time this weekend so I have no idea how my rounds will shoot. I've tried to look up every problem that people have had with them so I could make adjustements to make mine work better. This is just a wild hair thing for me since I already have the 22 Reed Express but it was something I just had to try.

I'll try looking up the sabot info you posted.
 
#16 ·
Mtdew, I have tried the lymans great plains bullets and cast lee bullets. I like the sabots better loaded with a hornady .430" 240gr LSWCHP bullet over a 100gr charge. The hollowpoint opens up rapidly doing quite a bit of damage. I've even shot two deer lengthwise angling away from just below the rump on through the opposite front shoulder which was busted on the way out. So I'm getting fantastic performance with them. That performance is why I eventually got a .444 marlin. I'm not sure which one is more accurate though. I use open sights on the hawkins and about all I can do with open sights is about 3" at 100yds WITH ANY GUN. Which is about what I get with the hawkins using sabots or lead bullets. I know the guns are more accurate than that though. I can shoot a peep sight much better at about 1.5"-2" (m1A/AR15, M1) and may eventually put a peep sight on the hawkins if my eyes get much worse.

I'm sure there's a way to get the sabots to shoot well in centerfire rifles. Once you get the right twist rate and charge weight figured out. But heck thats half the fun.
 
#17 ·
I finally got the sabots to the range and found that the nice little 35gr Hornady bullets did not do well at all. The best was the 55gr Sierra spire points and that is what I shot at the target below. I had just gotten a short Leapers 3-9 scope that would fit on the carry handle of the carbine and it's not the best scope in the world but I used it to first zero in to the center of the target using commercial Seller&Bellott 7.62 Tokarev ammo. There are two 30 caliber holes that can be see near the target center box or diamond shape. I fired a total of 30 sabots and the majority went into that area that's 1.5" wide and about 2.5" above the two 7.62 holes. As can be see I had flyers that circled the impact area. I placed a quarter in the area to give a reference as to the size of it. I am not a great shot as can be seen by the two 7.62 Tokarev holes not touching so I had a hand in some of the inaccuracy of the sabots. I had to peel the target off the barckboard and stick it on some cardboard to save it. Some of the center section of the impact area was lost when I peeled the target off.
 
#19 ·
Thats not too shabby:woot: Now you can start playing around with the charge weights ect to see if it improves at all. How bad were the 35gr vmax?
Thanks for saying that! I should try what you said and see if changing the charge weight makes any difference. I really feel bad about the 35gr bullets -- they didn't shoot worth a darn. They shot just like some people have described shooting sabots -- more like a pattern from a shotgun. They fit in a PPS-43 magazine perfect and the only problem I had was two or three of the short sabots hit something as they fed to the chamber, bent back one of the little fingers, and caused a jam. I didn't have that problem with the longer sabot loads but I was using an M1 Carbine magazine and adapter for those rounds. I did also try them with a GI magazine with a single shot follower and that worked but I figured that was a waste of time when you have an AR. I was thinking that maybe the short 35gr sabots might work better in my CZ-52 pistol.
 
#20 ·
I've had limited results with sabots, I get some OK results but far from "target" aacy. MtDew try the Buffalo "ballettes" in your muzzle loader if it's a side lock, They are awsome!!!! I get 3/4 moa out of an OLD+ punished, $75 CVA timberwolf front stuffer w/ 100gr FFFG!! They are like a ball with a shoulder and no patch required, hint, a bit of extra "crisco" keeps down the leading and fowling, and they come with felt wads. Surprises me and everyone else, best projectile I've found for a round ball type twist, and never had a deer walk away yet! They hit like a brick and they work for me, very well. I've taken over 30 deer with that combo, 1 shot 1 kill every time!!! I even leave my fancy $400 muzzle loaders at home unless it's raining.
 
#21 ·
Yesterday I was cleaning up the carbine I used to shoot the sabots and found that the scope was loose -- the scope bases were not tight to the rail and the scope moved easily front to back. Now I'm not a great shot and I mentioned how I couldn't get the two 7.62 Tok shots to touch and it was only 50 yards and I was at 9 power on the scope. I can't say for sure if the scope had anything to do with the accuracy or not -- of course it doesn't help when you're already a bad shot.

I had already started the day out bad at the range. I had an old box of Sellier&Bellott ammo that I was using to sight in the scope before trying the sabots. I was having a heck of a time getting the scope to zero in but never thought to check the mounts -- figured it was just me. Then I got a squib load and a bullet stuck in the barrel -- so I had to pack up and drive home to try and get the bullet out. I got back to the range and fired those two shots and figured I better stay with them and not push my luck. I'm going to try again in a couple of weeks, but with a tight scope and better sight-in ammo.
 
#22 ·
Got a Chrony to check the velocities on the sabots. the average for 5 rounds was 2288fps with a high of 2296. I got most of 20 rounds into a 1" target square at 50 yards with just a couple of flyers. Seems the bullet seater I was using was actually pushing on the sabot, not the bullet so I made a special ram for the Tok bullet seater just for sabots. It did seem to help some but sabots will never be target ammo.
 
#23 ·
Hey guys, I can't seem to start a new thread, so some one put this up as a new thread for me. Century has 762x25 back in stock 135.90 per 800 rnds in sealed can. I know some of you have been looking hard for it, hard, hope this helps the lookers. I'll post it in a couple other places too so as many people can see it as possible.
 
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