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AR novice needs assistance

3K views 36 replies 10 participants last post by  2ndAmendican 
#1 ·
Looking for an entry level AR-15, I see Rock River has Entry Operators for $1000.00 and Red Jacket has one for $1050.00. Is one of these better than the other? Other suggestions?

Thanks
al
 
#2 ·
"entry level" is on of those salesman gimmick buzzwords. like your going to have a ar-15 with training wheels or something then graduate to a REAL ar-15?? LOL!

without the particulars on either weapon i can't say one over the other. either sho0uld be fine though i would lean to the red jacket version as it is not a mass produced variant.

in the building world a "entry level" ar-15 would go for more like $500 sometimes even a bit less. in the mall ninja world the more it cost the better it is.

sometimes you do get a little more, the trick is to know where that extra $$ should be spent and spend the money saved on good mags and ammo.--lots and lots of ammo--LOL
 
#3 ·
Welcome aboard Al. I'm in the same boat. I am well versed on the AK platform and have built and own many, I do not have, nor have I built an AR. I am just at the research stage to see if I want to buy an M4 type AR15, or build it myself.
 
#4 ·
Those prices are expensive in today's market. I would get a colt 6920 before any of those(I've seen them new for $1050-1100shipped)

Check out Palmetto State Armory too. You can get a Complete chrome lined upper for $400, and a complete lower for $240 or you can build one of there's for much cheaper.

So your looking at $640+shipping and you just have to slap it together.
 
#5 ·
this man speaks the truth!

the AR-15 m4 is a bolt and pin deal so why not build you own?

palmetto makes some very good stuff so that $400 upper has all the good stuff in it to start with.

they also sell a $50 forged lower.

add in a $55 stock kit and a LPK for about $60--where are we? about $550? throw in some good mags for $10 -$12 a pop--


you see where we are going with this--LOL

anyway if you got a little $$ you can make go a long long way as the rush is over and the glut is ON-- and they need to make a sale.
 
#6 ·
Yeah you need to do some more research, you should be able to find a basic AR for the 500-700 range, and if you can put one together you can do it for a little less or get better quality parts.

And out of the two you mentioned, I'd go with the Red Jacket, I think you'd get get a better built rifle.
 
#7 ·
If you are looking for good deals on AR rifles, check out CDNN...

Buy Gun Accessories, Hi-Capacity Mags, Scopes, Gun Parts & More at CDNN Sports, Inc.

They are one of the Factory "Blowout" channels.

If you want to really build your own, there are a number of companies that sell parts kits with everything except the lower receiver.

akpartskits.com
These guys have the lowest prices, but they just assemble the kits and sell them. Up to you to make it all work. I have had good luck, but; out of 8 kits total purchased, 1 was a complete lemon (bad barrel) and four had gas ring issues. In truth, the gas-ring issues were contributed to by hot-loading as we worked out our loads. Had we correctly diagnosed the bad barrel soon enough, we could have gotten it taken care of for minor shipping fees. Our bad. These guys have a somewhat bad rep due to their affiliations with some previous bad-actors. I have had no real issues or trouble with them.

cmmg.com
These guys are a class act, but not too popular due to some early customer service and QC issues.

Del ton Rifle Kits & Del ton AR 15 Rifles | Gun Supplies & Gun Accessories from Del-ton, Inc.
I have heard good things about these guys. But I have not really purchased anything other than some small parts and a lower parts kit. Decent prices, slow shipping, no issues with the products.

-D S Arms
Very good quality, ok prices, great customer service. Recognized for their FN-FAL Products. I would buy from them without hesitation. In fact, I will be re-barreling one of my uppers using their heavy profile-mid length gas system barrel. They have excellent barrels at excellent prices. They love the Nitride process, and those have been well reviewed as being BOTH accurate AND durable. The best of Chrome-Moly accuracy and Hard Chrome Durability.

Model 1 Sales:
It is hard to recommend these guys. A couple of issues through the years, customer service is acceptable, prices are not as good. It is also hard to flame them. eh., just eh.

Bushmaster, Colt, S&W, DPMS, and at least a thousand others are all good, great, or god-like.

Look in the mirror and ask "am I a Rifleman, or a Gunsmith?" If you are a Rifleman, buy a brandname and pay the money. Enough said.
 
#8 ·
I know I am not the OP, but thanks guys.
Good info Bellson. Thanks. I think I'm going to get a parts kit from either PSA or Delton, and a PSA lower. Plus PSA is only about 90 miles from me. Hell, I might drive down there.
 
#9 ·
Yeah, there are plenty of manufacturers. . . so many that I can't even keep up. . I forget one, then another pops up. I hate to do this, but if you're gonna list all of the above, then you must list

BCM and Spikes

They are my 2 favs, maybe just 'cause they were hot when I got started building. Honestly I've used then for 10s of K of $ and they provide top notch quality at modest prices. I still don't buy a BCG from anyone else, except FZ.

BUILD YOUR LOWER (at least). If you've built AKs, then you already have the tools for AR building. I like a good mag well block, but if you're cheap a block of wood will do. Slap a complete upper on and go shooting!!!
 
#11 ·
OK, talked to my local FFL (that is also an AR15 Manufacterer. Makes his own upper/lowers/barrels, so he may be dissing the competition.) and he told me to stay away from PSA products. Especially the BCG's and lowers. Claimed that they are sub standard parts made in China by Aero-something. So now I'm confused again. Recommended his own brand of course, as well as Delton, Spikes, CMMG, Colt, S&W, etc... Said to stay away from PSA, and Rguns, and a few others that I can't remember, as they were all from the same Aero-something manufacturer, but just had the various private labels machined into them.

J427x, what do you mean about Delton ripping you off on the shipping?

Basically I am trying to either buy or build a basic, but good quality, dependable M4 style AR15, with a detachable carry handle, for as close to the $700.00 mark as possible. I know that may be unreasonably low, without going through PSA, but that's my goal. And I don't want to wait for a year while one component, then another, and so on, comes up for sale somewhere. I would like to be able to buy/build this over the next few weeks.

This FFL, James Firearm & Outdoors, in Greer, S.C., recommended his basic lower, along with a Del-Ton M4 parts kit. He said that would give me a good, reliable, quality M4, with good accuracy and long life. Said the only issue with this set-up is that Del-Ton doesn't have the prettiest machining.

My main issue is that he has a vested interest in selling me his lower for $125.00, versus the $50.00 lower from PSA.
 
#12 ·
he is full of horse dung. he is trying to steer you into buying his shit.

AERO is made in washington state. PSA uses governemnt contractor parts from what i have seen there all CMT made like stag and rr--

i haven't handled any of their lowers but i figure there made by LAR which supplies most of the lowers on the market.

there is nothing really wrong with a del-ton, i have several uppers made with del-ton parts/barrels.

i am not crazy about del-tons bolt carrier groups but they are ok but certainly nothing special.

del-ton is OK for the price but their certainly not the bang-for buck they once were.

if i was buying a del-ton i would buy it from JSE rather than directly from del-ton.

one more little thing--- AR-15 parts arn't importable from china, they haven't been importable from china in a long long time. you pal is way out to lunch on that one.


del-ton is sort of the "low dollar brand" sort of like DPMS or DSA.

i use lots of their parts there certainly good enough. personally i rarely use their bolt carrier groups though they are good enough a BC-usa. LMT or mill surp carriers don't cost much more so that is what i use mostly.


the most expensive and critical parts on the ar-15/m16 series are the barrel and the bolt carrier group. my advice is to get the best quality you can afford for them.


i haven't heard a peep bad about PSA's other than your post. there bolt carriers that i have seen are excellent. they look identical to stag/CMT & their barrels may well be made by del-ton which is a good brand and they use 4150cv steel in their 14.5" and 16" barrels these days so their not far behind bushmaster or colt even. even if they ran that mall-ninja four letter word (DPMS) i have several of their barrels and they all shoot very well.

another place you should look is over at DSA-- they have good prices and they are related to LMT , they sell a lot on nitrite treated barrels which many think are the cats ass.


AR15 Lowers & Uppers-D S Arms



what to buy in your case is what you want. the world is full of m4 type arms and parts , there about as cheap as there going to get , most of the stuff out there is good , hell some even like hess AK-parts and i know they toss in a dew duds--LOL!
 
#13 ·
now this is the thing you want to avoid -- or anything like it--


http://www.gunco.net/forums/f255/moores-machine-ars-63329/#post645046


most of the time when you hear some "old lady" --"rag mouthing" one brand of ar-15 or parts and so on it is just "old lady's trying to screw the other guy while his back is turned." type of thing.

there are a few real turkeys out there like this "MM" job but there really kind of rare considering how many vendors are out there buying selling and making ar-15 stuff.
 
#15 ·
+1 to what j427x said. He's just trying to make you buy his stuff. I've seen it being down hundred's of times.

Also, Upper receivers/lowers are all forged by Cerro, etc... There just machined by the companies. That said, if you'd like I will post a picture of 3 lowers I have. A spike's(Which has horrible machine marks) My bushmaster which isn't bad, and my PSA which is perfect.
 
#16 ·
Thanks guys for steering me right. I went by his shop on Saturday, and he is full of sh*t!!!! He tried to snow me on three different subjects, of which I knew more than him on two of them!!!!!!!!! What a dick!!!!! I wouldn't buy a bullet from him, much less a complete firearm, or a lower receiver in this case.

I think I will go with PSA on this build, and just get another shop to do the transfer on the lower.

By the way, this guy's company's name is almost too close to Palmetto State Armory. His is, Palmetto State Defense, in Greer, S.C.
 
#17 ·
there is an old saying in the DOD

"90% of the cost of a weapons system is in the last 10%."

i think the m16/AR-15 world is sort of like that.

it would be more like that last 50% in cost to get that last 10% of improvements. not quite as bad as the DOD!


with the market flooded with ar-15s and parts there is lots of deals out there.

the thing is decide what you want before hand and know what your buying.

there is nothing wrong with plunking down $1K for a saber, DD or LMT made shooter IF that is what you want. just don't let some ninja talk you into thinking you have to spend that much to get an ar-15 that runs well.

the reverse is also true --there is nothing wrong with building a $500 AR and they can be made to run well, they just don't have all the gold plated stuff or a big name.

it all really what you want, if you know what you want , you'll know what you'll have to spend and be happy with then end product.
 
#19 ·
I don't think you'll ever regret getting a nice completed ar from a respected manufacturer especially one from Will and his boys. However, All of my ar15's except one were bought as kits. Get your upper already put together and you won't need any specialized tools that the average house doesn't already have.
 
#20 ·
Ar15 was the easiest build I have ever done. I would recomend building one over buying a complete rifle,even for a novice,altho it may not be for those w/ NO mech ability.I wound up investing $625 and it is a great shooter.Now I saved some money by installing bbl myself, but like moleman said a complete upper keeps u from having to do that. Everything else is plug and play.
 
#21 ·
Amen to the above. If you choose NOT to build AT LEAST your own lower and then have to learn about it for whatever reason in the future, you will be seriously kicking yourself in the ass for not doing it the first time. Yes, there is a high number of parts, but they are broke down into a smaller # of steps and you'll know how to diagnose a good ammount of FC issues.

I have a buddy that was complaining to me about his older BM being a POS. I asked what was wrong, he said the take down pin keeps falling out, the gun never did fit right and the trigger sucked, he was ready to sell it for nothing and start over.. . HOLY CRAP! I told him to let me see. I took out a punch, reset the pins detent/spring, replaced his hammer spring and installed an accu-wedge in ~5min. He couldn't believe it.

That was damn near a MAJOR loss for NOTHING. All because the town we're from (I moved, for now) is small and NO BODY messes with black guns. Either you're a hunter or a IDPA shooter, FOR NOW. Small towns take a while to catch up w/ things, anyways BUILD IT, BUILD IT, BUILD IT, you won't be sorry. :woot:
 
#22 ·
the ar-15 is one of if not the most simple center-fire high-power semi auto to work with there is.

there is not a whole lot of smithing to be done really.

the only parts of it that are much work are.

setting up a barrel for the GI front sight post. this requires some steady measurements and some drilling. a mistake and you get off the barrel port and or a canted front sight.


installing the barrel in the upper, this requires the barrel nut to be tightened up and in time with the gas tube. generally pretty easy. but many first timers bend the gas tube.

and then there are those little flea sized retaining pins that capture the big pins in the lower.

and there is the springs being installed backwards or getting swapped around.

all but the last two are if your building an upper.

if you buy an assembled upper all you will have to do is install the stock hardware, install the LPK and then attach the upper on the lower.

DPMS even has the parts mapped out on their skin-packed LPKs so it is sort of like having an instruction manual.


there is an army/AF manual on the M-16 that has about all you'll need to know about building any ar-15 in detail. has drawings of where the parts go and what to look for.

i think it is in the downloads section here. a good read for anybody wanting to build the ar-15.
 
#23 ·
Should be ordering my parts today from Palmetto State Armory. The only thing that pisses me off is that thanks to that asshole local FFL, I missed the $50.00 lowers sale! Thanks for all of your input guys. I know I am not the OP, but it was a subject that I was ready to post about anyway. Hopefully it helped the OP as well.
 
#24 ·
recently since the 'rush" has ended lowers have been coming up on sale pretty regular.

lowers are lower $$ than they ever have been.


there will be some deals on lowers-- just recently AIM has had spikes on sale for $69 IIRC.

not that long ago ANY lower was $100+ and $120 was the average price plus shipping.
 
#26 ·
Thanks Logan. I was planning to buy one of PSA's M4 kits, but they were out and it was going to be a few weeks before he had them back in stock. Knowing my wife, I figured if I didn't order it now, the money might not be there in the "gun fund" by then, so I went ahead and ordered the same basic M4 kit from Del-Ton. Next week I'll pick up a lower. If AIM still has those, I might get one or two of them. I want to get a Magpul MOE trigger guard too. I prefer the extra room, plus it just plain old looks better.

Any input on mags? I was thinking of getting a magwell adaptor for my Galil, so I can run AR mags in it as well. I want something that will run well in both, yet not be too expensive. Are the C Products mags decent? TIA,
 
#27 ·
C products mags should be fine.

my favorites are D&H mags or any mags made by D&H selling under another name like DSG and the mag-pull "P" mag.

GI surplus mags can be a good deal just be sure to check them over first.


one of the good things about the AR-15 there are plenty of good mags for them cheap and that was not the case in the past.

nowdays $10-$15 will get anything you want in a good mag. i have been buying the 40 rd c-products mags lately for $15 a pop. they seem to be a hell of a mag for $15 and seem to work fine with 44 rounds in them--LOL

i don't really need a 44 round mag but i thought i would buy a few just to piss the anti gun liberals off!
 
#28 ·
I was actually thinking about some of the 40 round C products mags. Glad they work good. I also like the P-mag with the window. Seems like a good idea. What are those polymer SOCOM mags? I can't remeber who makes those.
 
#29 ·
Never mind, I found them. The Tango Down mags is what I was thinking of.
 
#30 ·
i don't know about the tango down mags, i have never used them --them might be great for all i know.

CDNN has some mags on sale this weekend for like $6.99 made by fusil those could be good.

copes, 44mag, CTD, DSG and lots of places have good mags on sale. seems like DSG had some D&H made mags with the no-tilts for like $7 a pop not long ago --don't know if that sale is still on.

i bought a bunch of DSG/D&H mags from CTD on a blowout sale a while back for $5 or so a pop. so there are some deals on good ar-15 mags from time to time. the days of paying sky-high prices for good ar mags are over--for now anyways.

Specials
 
#31 ·
Still waiting on my Del-Ton M4 kit. In the mean time I was going to order a PSA lower. Started talking with a guy at work, that turned out to be an AR guy who is starting to develop some interest in building an APEX Bulgy AK74 kit. Told him about my M4 project, and he mentioned that he just bought a PSA lower, and wants to sell his Del-Ton lower. I wound up buying it for $60.00. Fairly new, one scratch (minor), no transfer fee, no shipping, etc.... I'm pleased. BTW, he was changing lowers because his AR kit was from PSA, but he already had the Del-Ton lower. He just wanted a matching rifle. Works out for me.
 
#32 ·
Finally got the email from Del-Ton that my M4 parts kit shipped!!!! Yay me!!!!
 
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