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how cheap can you go?

2K views 34 replies 10 participants last post by  j427x 
#1 ·
i know i am one of the worst to buy cheap AR stuff.

lately i have been on a cheap-o binge on buying AR parts.

so far i have done very well. i all ways double check everything and assemble everything myself. if i was forced to buy from some shady company i would probably tear down their upper and check everything--just to be sure.


there are pitfalls to going to cheap. when you start buying AR-15 parts from the bottom feeders on the market you are rolling the dice.:wow:

the most critical things are the barrel and the bolt carrier group. if these two parts arn't correct you can end up like the photos.

canted front sight/gas blocks are pretty common and usually can be fixed fairly easy.

improper chambering, gas ports drilled through into both sides of the barrel are pretty common ails for the bottom feeder AR-15 kits and generally arn't fixable without a barrel swap.

another thing that worries me about the very low end sellers in their bolt carriers. improper heat treating, out of size --lots of things that can go 'boom" in the night--LOL

if you are lucky you can get away with a bottom feeder build. if your not so lucky you likely spend more getting the thing up and running than it is worth.

my advice is spend that extra $50-$80 on a known quality kit from well established vendor.

saving that $50 is it really worth the trip to the ER?--LOL:death::death::death:
 

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#3 ·
no it ain't one of mine-- it was shipped as a complete top end. the owner slapped it on his lower and started shooting at the 80th shot she blew apart--

don't ask what brand as i know they got a few fans here.

it is what i consider the bottom of the barrel of the low $$ makes.

they have sold many a kit that did OK, a few that had problems and a few like these that nearly cased a 911 call--

for once i got to agree with the ninjas --a ninja like a stopped clock is right twice a day--LOL!:wow:
 

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#4 ·
Ah hell.

Do like they do in Africa with AKs. Smash that bolt back in with a hammer.
Couple of wraps of duct tape. Should be fine.
 
#6 ·
u can buy from a top notch dealer but not all of em make there own stuff in house.

hence it comes from somewhere and it could very well be the bottom of the barrel ar parts just so they can buy em cheap and resell em with there market price.

so if u don't really know if the work is done in house , then u might end up anything.
 
#7 ·
Point well taken j427x....

There are some real bottom feeders out there. I have dealt with a number of them.

I will follow your lead and not name the names.

I will say that I am pretty impressed with DSA and Del-Ton. The prices are higher, but in line with the bottom feeders, and rarely are more than $90 higher on similar kits or uppers.

Sorry that your buddy had a bad experience. Please PM me with the vendor name. I really want to know.
 
#9 ·
COME ON! COME ON! 4th, were PROFESSIONALS HERE, do it the right way,use a HOSE CLAMP for Gods sake!!!!! Everyone knows the duct tape is for sealer underneath!! Chuckle Chuckle Any parts I plan to buy are going to be DPMS anyhow I think. I don't need to be convinced about cut rate stuff, the picture says it all. I've never found cut rate parts to be worth the efforts expended in just making them work right anyhow, no less the safty/reliability factor. Like I always say buy the best you can afford, and your not usually not disapointed. I'm wanting to do a nice match grade 20" bull bbl upper for the bushey. But you can damn near get there best one done for about the same or less direct from DPMS as to build one. So I'm not sure which way to go. I don't remember the brand right now but I saw a super tuned, fluted match chamber bbl, comp,fancy boron bolt assy, carbon fiber tube, "the works" one somewhere that was like a 1000ish, I think you'd be hard pressed to build one for that by the looks of prices for the comprible parts sold seperatly. What you guys think that do these all the time, is that about right??
 
#10 ·
I have been thinking about how best to respond to the thoughts on this thread. Here are the steps that I normally follow when I order a parts kit or upper for an AR pattern Rifle....

1. Lay out all of the parts. Make sure they are all there.
2. Disassemble the major components to the field strip level and inspect the finish, shape, and mating surfaces.
3. Use a go, no-go, and field gauge set on the upper. You can use a factory loaded round as a go gauge.
4. If possible, assemble the trigger group parts into a known good lower to test the lock-up and function of the bits and pieces. This takes 15-20 min at most.
5. Now assemble ALL of the new bits into the target lower, and test for function.

This method works about 95% of the time. It will not reveal things like an f'd up chamber, deep drilled gas port, out of true barrel, etc.

Personally, I have had good luck with kits from vendors like Bushmaster, DPMS, Del-Ton, DSarms, and even Blackthorn and Model 1 Sales. I have also had issues, mostly with the trigger group components. In one case, I had a bad chamber (not headspace) with a Blackthorn kit. This issue could not be handled under warranty because we had put more than 500 rounds down range before the issue turned critical....So, that kit cost an additional $155 for a replacement barrel. Works great now. That was one out of 9 kits purchased....

As with any purchase, you need to know what you are buying. If you are not proficient at measuring the parts, then maybe it would be best for you to spend the extra $80-100 to ensure that your parts are in spec.

Just my $0.02

Regards,
4
 
#11 ·
bellson.. Good tips thank you.

twa.. Hose clamp. Well I will be hog tied. I never thought of that.
Dang blasted good thinking.
When these things blow up in your face, hot molten metal could take a damn eye out.
Yep. Hardware store tomorrow.
I am putting 4 hose clamps on every AR I own.
Saftey first. :)
 
#13 ·
he is trying some JB weld , now that he can see out of that good eye,-

-it says right on the box 'it can FIX ANYTHING right?!

note to all involved (seriously)

due to the lawsuit i can't say WHO shipped this one.

i can say that DSA, JSE, Del-ton, and DPMS did not make, assemble or sell any of the parts involved in this "ka-boom". it is NOT one of the high $$$$ mall-ninja uppers either.

this upper came from a very low $ vender that states "no seconds" on its website.

i have heard from a reliable and experienced AR-15 hobbyist --but haven't actually handled witnessed with my own two eyes that this "retailer" ships about two bad heat treat carriers out of 10. not to mention other parts with spotty heat treatment .

you can take that for what it is worth-- just my $0.02--

hey on the bright side if you have this brand that is only 20% chance of 'boom"! see nothing to worry about!!!--

all i can say is don't use suspect carriers folks!
 
#14 ·
j427x, Have you suggested that he uses magic putty? Or is that not available anymore since Billy Mays had his grabber? Will we be seeing another name change for this company soon.
 
#15 ·
:hatprop::notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:slap::slap::slap::woot::smilie_sc:smilie_sc:scared::lol::lol::thumbup1:


i figure the court will ORDER this AR-15 maker to DUMP all their parts in the dumpster.

sort of like back in the day when all those SUV tires were bad--they were supposed to have a 1" hole drilled through um--but they started turning up everywhere anyway.

we will probably see a new online only company selling "special forces" ar-15 stuff.

i hear duct-tape does wonders!--LOL!:wow::redgrin:
 
#16 ·
i think these are the source of the bad parts from a few years back .

the problem is bad AR-15 parts are sort of like a bad penny. they just keep turning up.


some dumpster diver got all the re-called parts and sold them cheap to this unfortunate assembler. add in bad chamber with incorrect head-space into the mix--

run for it boys! she is gonna BLOW!:wow::wow::wow::wow:
 

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#17 ·
I'd sure like to know who the original manufacturer of those carriers was (I understand you can't say). The last one sure like like it has the colt "C" on it, but they get parts from suppliers also. This past tuesday I got a call from a company to tell me that the ar15 barrel extensions I had ordered would not be in my package. The company said that they were sending a complete lot of barrel extensions back to their supplier because they were made wrong (can't remember the exact wording he said). They apoligized profusely for the inconvience, I told them not to worry about it. I'd just rather wait a few days for a correctly made part than have an upper come appart on me like the ones in the pic. Thats the manufacturer catching the bad parts and not the supplier that made them and had them pass their QC tests.
 
#18 ·
I'd sure like to know who the original manufacturer of those carriers was (I understand you can't say). The last one sure like like it has the colt "C" on it, but they get parts from suppliers also.

well they started out as "outsourced' colts. there was a few disasters like the ones pictured. they got recalled. all the bad carriers got pulled and replaced with good ones.

the bad carriers were supposed to be melted down in scrap metal.

somebody rescued the bad carriers from their doom and they sat around for a few years, then they finally turn up at this vendor where he mixes them in with some other 'good" ones. which then get sold with uppers willy-nilly!

so now their floating around in a few uppers. even the bad ones may not ALL be bad. i figure the whole lot got the AX which included a bunch of good carriers and a few bad ones.

i wish i knew the exact rate of bad ones. the 20% we dreamed up is just a WAG. it might be less than that or worse cause we don't know what other scrap parts these boobs mixed them in with--
 
#19 ·
I will just ask: Are there any identifying markings on the carrier that I can check against mine?

To me, the non-description says Model-1 or Blackthorn. In my experience, they are the two who amalgamate parts from every source together into kits at "best" prices. I have had issues from both, but nothing that serious. Mostly trigger group issues that were easy to identify and fix, and one egged out chamber that took 500+ rounds to really manifest itself...That one sucked....We were working up recipes at that time as well...Really screwed us up...Lots of torn up cases, lots of cracked cases, and lots of cursing...
 
#21 ·
your in the ballpark--- think special forces --with a crossman 1911 bb pistol-- think three day return policy!

the same fine smiths that built all those warped FAL's & a few years ago--

as for who made the carriers --nobody knows other than they were made back when colt was experimenting with outsourcing at around the time of the 08 obama gun rush.

the carrier is overly thin where the split is and the metal is overly hard -- the wrong steel and the wrong heat-treat probably. hell it could even be an import??? i thought all those import china steel carriers got trashed back in the clinton era???

the upper has other problems as the chamber looks --borked.


i talked to this kid the other day he said their offering him a new upper --even though his three days has expired! how generous!

i told him to ask for some free bandages to boot--
 
#20 ·
j4..

I am still trying too figure what is wrong with the picture of the gun you put up.
Looks like it should shoot fine.
Just rip that piece of metal off hanging there. Then spray paint it black.
Probably run a lot cooler too.
 
#23 ·
O.K. j4

Looks like one of those cheap uppers you told me about, from Model 1 sales. :redgrin:
- Do you have a good lawyer?
- Have you ever studied Karate or Kung fooie?
- Do you own a dog who bites strangers?
- Can you still walk too your mail box without being out of breath?
- I have a rough idea where you live and I know a guy in the Mafia.

I am really trying too get a round count, before these things blow up.
My old lady loves shooting.
Yup off too the range with a case of ammo.
"Here honey, shoot this one, you will love it."
"Oh my God what happened? Stay calm, I am calling an ambulance."
 
#24 ·
the same fine smiths that built all those warped FAL's & a few years ago--
HMMMMMM I see a clue that has a answer in another thread. I know I know can you guys figure it out :)

One of the reasons im not a AR fan. The research and work to know who makes what and what is good and what is junk and what to use or not to use is exhausting all for a gun IMO is not that good to begin with. I know there are guys who know all the ins and outs and can doa quality home assemble but even then they some times get screwed. At a recent show there was table after table of AR parts and it made my head spin as to what was what and all that.
 
#30 ·
have a light beer-- on my tab! LOL!

i am wondering when this "special forces' company is going to start making AK's? they have screwed the FN-FALs , they screwed the AR-15 kits all to hell. there ain't many military type of firearms left to bork except the AK's and their selling AK parts now? --LOL! they even named the joint after them--LOL

i don't know if ALL their parts and kits are bad. there has to be some good kits as they have been on the market for some years now even with the name change every month it is too easy to connect the dots. it is the ratio of bad/trash/scrap that i am trying to get a grip on.


i think my pals WAG of close to 20% is pretty close. the bad thing is that some discover this the hard way. probably the disaster prone some what less than the stated 20%.

20% defective being correct the disaster waiting to happen is probably in the single digits.

that said i think i'll gladly pay that extra $50-$100 and avoid that single digit of "total fail" that might land me in the ER--
 
#31 ·
Thanks for the heads up j427x and the great info and checklist for an AR kit or complete upper from bellson. As for 4thIDvet you are killin' me, my wife keeps asking what the hell I'm laughing about. I like a good deal like the next guy, and I've bought a lot of things that j427x finds and post for us here, but I'm really thankful for the reviews, warnings and good advice from j427x, and all the other great folks on this site!! Bargain buys are sure not worth getting hurt or even ruining a good lower like that poor guy with the Colt lower.
 
#32 ·
i am far from an AR specialist. most of my dealing with the m-16/m4 system was toting it in very hot or very cold parts of the world and dealing with the friendly natives.

the AR is one of the most simple and easy to assemble and smith rifles ever designed.

two things it has to have -

# 1 a good barrel assembly that has the proper chamber and head-space.

#2 a properly made bolt and bolt carrier

these are not places to skimp even on the most low $ effort, AR-15, AK, FN-FAL don't matter the type--they all have to be correct in this regard.

this is not saying that there arn't some good venders in the lower priced AR market. i can list some good ones.

be very wary of vendors that are raiding others scrap piles. it is that last dollar that many try to save that gets them into this kind of shit.
 
#33 ·
j4 knows I am funnin him..

He p.m. me too ask if I really have a hit on him from the mob. :)
All kidding aside. Nobody is listening.
I really have not touched one of these things for 40 years.
Florida is the epicenter for NASCAR engines, gun parts, etc..
With an airport "Deland" "Daytona" they can manufacture and fly stuff out quite easily.
Me and my Bro just went too one of the AR factories and got the tour.
Quality big names. Nice people..
While everyone is arguing about which AR is the best.
They will sell me whatever the hell I want and have cash for.
No names on the items.. So I buy.
500 recievers. "Tim 4th ID Vet recievers" Barells, bolts, same same.
So when were at the range.
"My Rock River is better than your DPMS.."
Do some manufacture their own? For sure.
But it cost a small fortune too tool up for these products.
So they buy from someone allready tooled up, that meets their standards and put their name on it.
My $325 complete upper shorty, is all marked RR..
Rock River. Hell I dont know?
Does price determine quality?
Probably so, if your lucky.
So you may be shootin the same company weapon. With different names on them.
Come down, I will take you too the factory and show yah.
 
#35 ·
hell i ordered some DPMS lower parts kits from JSE a while back, the cheap ones in the plastic bags.

when they came in they were all marked rock-river--

the reason for so many factories making AR/m16 parts is in the cold war they wanted many small factories making parts. many of the small parts makers went commercial after the cold war --

DPMS did make a lot of small parts for m-16 and 1911s. i remember seeing some in the arms room.

i am glad ya called that hit off 4th. i can't sprint away like i did back in 81!--LOL!
 
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