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Thread: Bent Saiga?

  1. #21
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    In the US, the receiver is the serialed part.

    In other countries, they number everything.

    You bought parts, not a rifle.

    If you're worried about it, sell it to me for $200
    actualy it likely is still a rifle even if its hack sawed in two. Im not sure a saw cut constitutes destroyed. however I belive that the procedured for destroying a civilinan rifle are much differant than demiling a FA import. for instance some citys just dump them in the ocean as is. some run them through a metal grinder/shreddder some have a company demill tham and the parts can be sold.

    If your LEO is saying dont do it Id be care full. your already on the radar and if you do it thay may challange it if you go against there advice. He is likely wrong but i also see why he is cautiong you. that trunion number is going to come back as registerd to your buddy regardless of what you do they will run it and also what ever is on the new reciver if you buy a 100% reciver. the new reciver will technicaly be the fire arm but that dont mean the parts you posses are not also considerd a fire arm. there may or not be a law against destroying your own fire. simbly cutting it in two may or may not be enough, and if hes mailing it to you then be care full because if its considerd still a fire arm then you illeagly shipping and transfering a fire arm.

    I have never been convinced that in regards to imoorted SARs and Saigas that the trunion is technicaly not part of the actual reciver. were talking a registerd fire arm were the actual serial number to register it is on the front trunion and no were on the reciver. ( yea I now that demilled kits the numbers mean nothing but those were never technicaly a fire arm n the USA) I keep thinking that at some point the ATF will simply rule that the trunion is perminatly riveted part of the reciver no differant than a milled. I honestly was suprised the were not always that way.

    so if you pull the trunin off of a perfectly good sagia and dont destroy it Do you now have a illeagle fire arm with obscured numbers??? think about it, you have a reciver that is 100 precent with out proper markings. the reciver is the fire arm and if you have a reciver and no marking look out. How would you prove were it came from ect. Im just playing devils advocite here. I have heard of smiths who solder a wire to the reciver and the trunion when doing conversions or custom work so that the numbers are never removed from it. if I took your saw cut rifle repaired the bends and welded it back together I doubt that id be able to claim its no longer the same rifle. this is defferant tan doing a reweld on a milled formerly FA kit as that rifle has been properly demilled and torch cut acccording to law.

    Honestly Im suprised that they are allowed into the country with only a serial number on the trunion in the first place. technicaly the trunion is susposed to be a seperate piece there for im suprised there not considerd improperly marked.

    Id definatly document the build and possably turn in the parts to a LEO . if nothing else it may help avoid issues down the road especialy if you show you sought LEO advice regarding the procedure.

    years ago I enquired about saw cutting a mauser action in half and then rewelding it in hopes of making a NEW virgin reciver that could then be built as a pistol. I was told by a LEO not the ATF that it would not consitute being destoyed. They may have been wrong but I didnt risk it. I keep looking at those cheap nagents and keep thinking about writting a letter to the ATF as to what it nessacry to demill one of those to be only parts.

    Id love to see a ATF letter/opinion about this.

  2. #22
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    I missed the part were it was cut into three parts and the mag well was removed although Im not sure why the mag well would need to be cut out on a non FA weapon. I read the thread some time ago and it was only getting cut in two.

    Is there some writtin guide lines on demilling your own fire arm and disposing of it??? Im sure if not dne correctly you could get into trouble. for exampe you dimp the parts and they are found by kids ect. there has got to some rules to this.

  3. #23
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    Oddly enough I cant find any thing on properly demilling , destroying , rendeing useless fire arms by the private sector. every thing says to just turn them in to the Police.

    Im more determined than ever to find a answer to my cut and rewelded bolt action being made into a pistol question

  4. #24
    Gunco Maniac sjohnson's Avatar
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    Importers ARE the private sector. Just as you can file for the tax stamp for an NFA item you can file for permits to import firearms or parts of firearms. Private business people do it, not some government agency.

    You've not defaced the serial number by demilling the trunnion from the Saiga receiver any more than you'd deface the serial number of a Mauser receiver by cutting it into pieces (unless you're cutting THROUGH the serial number).

    Turn the demilled Saiga receiver over to a LEO for disposal, and you've turned in the rifle because the receiver is the rifle by law. Give them the trunnion serial number for recording purposes and be done with it.

    Build it on a standard serialized receiver like you'd get from NDS or bend your own and no need for a serial number.
    I have a daughter. I tell her, "911 is what you dial after you're raped. 1911 is what you should have before they try."

  5. #25
    Gunco Member Contract_Pilot's Avatar
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    I called the sheriff again... still bad news

    he told me if I turn in the old receiver for disposal the serial will be listed in the DOL database as forfeited/destroyed and they can confiscate any firearm with that serial number on it? He said any firearm with out a serial # on the receiver one can be charged with Changing or Obliterating Serial Number at the LEO's/Prosecutors discretion. Also stated that the section is clear....

    Changing or Obliterating Serial Number.
    It is unlawful for any person to change, alter, remove or obliterate the serial number upon any firearm. Possession of any firearm upon which the serial number has been changed, altered, removed or obliterated is prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed or obliterated the serial number.

    He told me I need to have a licensed gunsmith do the repairs and file a 4473 on it listing both serial numbers? then started a lecture on how it is not safe to be building my own firearms?

    Looks like this one will stay in its oiled bag in the back of the closet until I get a response back from the state attorney general.

  6. #26
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    You've not defaced the serial number by demilling the trunnion from the Saiga receiver any more than you'd deface the serial number of a Mauser receiver by cutting it into pieces (unless you're cutting THROUGH the serial number).
    HMMM with all due respect im not so sure I agree here . you are definatly removing serial numbers from the firearm. removing serial numbers from a firearem is ileagal correct? you would now have a reciver/fire arm devoid of numbers. I doubt you could legaly register/transfer it with out the numbers presant. How is removing the numbers from a Saiga and grinding them off a mauser or any other gun differant? because the trunion a seperate piece? Im betting that if the ATF walked in and you had a Saiga reciver/firearm with no numbers it would be declared illeagle. I may be wrong but Id like to see proof that I am, Id be happly to be wrong. cutting up a mauser action and leaving the numbers intack it completly differant then removing a trunion and leaving the original reciver intact. IMOO one is destroying a firearm ( the mauser) and one is removing numbers (the sagia) If you were saying there is no diffearance from cutting up a sagia reciver leaving the trunion on and cutting a mauser reciver Id agree, or if you stated removing the trunion and grinding the mauser,s numbers Id agree.

    I think the key here is that the Saiga reciver needs to be destroyed before the trunion can be considered parts. since contactpilots rifle is being destroyed Im pretty sure he is not breaking any laws. Id documnet with pictures that the trunion/numbers were still on the parts after demilling it proving that that no numbers were removed from a fire arm and only removed from a legaly destroyed one. ( what ever constitutes a legaly destroyed registerd modern no military fire arm) a then turn the reciver over to the police as you stated. You might have a hard time proving that the numbers you are giving them are correct with out this proof. this would also remove the fire arm from the registerd owners name it would also make the trunion numers not come up in the future if they were ran on the new reciver. I would also build this one on a 100% reciver just insure a paper trail. it wouldent be a issue to build it on a blank but then the numbers would get run every time. no big deal but likely confusing.

    Contactpilot recently posted how he was detained for several hour before a flight and searched so Its not out of the realm of possabity to be searched again. he also has already had contact with LEO,s regarding this weapon IMOO he needs to be 100% certain hes doing it right. I think he is.

    I have seen Sagia trunions for sale left over from guys attempting to build a more athentic russan build that takes standard mags by replacing the original one with a true AK trunion with a bullet guide. Im not convinced that there removing the numbers from the reciver and replacing them or ommiting them in the case of a virgin trunion is legal.
    they have removed the serial numbers from a fire arm pure and simple. they have no way to prove the reciver is theres and not stolen they have no proof of any thing other than they have a Sagia firearm devoid of the correct serial numbers it came with.

    I have wanted to build a pistol form a 308 sagia trunion for some time. Of the two 308bolts and trunions ive seen in 4 years both the numbers were still registerd as rifles to the last guy who had it in his name. none came up stolen but that also meant that some were the reciver was never turned in or never reported stolen and could be later reported as such. I heard of a guy who had his fire arm stolen but didnt have the numbers and it was not in his name due to a face to face sale. 5 years later he saw the original owner who was able to produce the numbers. it was then reported stolen. Of course it was never found YET.

    I have read some were and seen it posted here as well (i think) were smiths will solder wire from the trunion and the reciver on firearms when removing them for repairs to the reciver to maintian a legal connection. Im pretty sure this was done on high dollar legal full autos were the reciver absolutly must be kept in its original transferable form and also having a full auto reciver with no legaly transferble numbers would be also considered a illeagle machine gun. however full auto or not IMOO the numbers need to be some how attached to the non demilled reciver at all time or ou would be in posseion of a illegaly altered fire arm. again I may be completly wrong and if sme one can prove it Im all for it.

    I would not be suprised that the ATF would declare a Sagia reciver shell with no trunion as illegal. they insiist that all fire arms have a serial numbers for a reason and if you had a reciver with out them I see no way that you can claim there not removed or how you would prove thaat reciver is not stolen or legaly owned property. there is no way that it can be transfered with out the numbers. or even prove its yours.

    Id be happy to be proven wrong but it would take a ATF lettter or a court decision to to satisfy me. Im well aware the reciver is the fire arm and all that but im also aware thet removing serial numbers is illegal from a intact firearm. I se no way that you can remove all the numbers and still legal unless the reciver is LEGALY destroyed first.

  7. #27
    No Hope For Me 1biggun's Avatar
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    I called the sheriff again... still bad news

    he told me if I turn in the old receiver for disposal the serial will be listed in the DOL database as forfeited/destroyed and they can confiscate any firearm with that serial number on it? He said any firearm with out a serial # on the receiver one can be charged with Changing or Obliterating Serial Number at the LEO's/Prosecutors discretion. Also stated that the section is clear....

    Changing or Obliterating Serial Number.
    It is unlawful for any person to change, alter, remove or obliterate the serial number upon any firearm. Possession of any firearm upon which the serial number has been changed, altered, removed or obliterated is prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed or obliterated the serial number.

    He told me I need to have a licensed gunsmith do the repairs and file a 4473 on it listing both serial numbers? then started a lecture on how it is not safe to be building my own firearms?

    Looks like this one will stay in its oiled bag in the back of the closet until I get a response back from the state attorney general.

    he is wrong on several accounts here IMOO.

    he told me if I turn in the old receiver for disposal the serial will be listed in the DOL database as forfeited/destroyed and they can confiscate any firearm with that serial number on it? He said any firearm with out a serial # on the receiver one can be charged with Changing or Obliterating Serial Number at the LEO's/Prosecutors discretion. Also stated that the section is clear....


    well first of all a fire arm can be made by yourself with no serial numbers and its clearly stated in the ATF written laws. the numbrs on a trunion are no longer serial numbers to a fire arm there no differant than the numbers on bolt, dust cover, sightes ect. there are thusands of guns built from parts with numbers of destoyed registeerd fire arms.


    Changing or Obliterating Serial Number.
    It is unlawful for any person to change, alter, remove or obliterate the serial number upon any firearm. Possession of any firearm upon which the serial number has been changed, altered, removed or obliterated is prima facie evidence that the possessor has changed, altered, removed or obliterated the serial number.
    the key word is firearm the parts you have are no longer a fire arm and the fact that they are reporting it as destroyed proves it is no longer a fire arm. even if you ground the numbers off the trunion your still not obliterating a serial number nay more aas that number nolonger exists as being associated to a fire arm. the fact that you have not obliterated it or changed it makes his statements more wrong

    He told me I need to have a licensed gunsmith do the repairs and file a 4473 on it listing both serial numbers?
    there is no law requiring a liscensed smith a you to work on your firearms. Im not sure you can even list the numbers like he said??? what number would they use??

    then started a lecture on how it is not safe to be building my own firearms?




    HIS biased incorrect opinon should have no part of a discussion were you are attempting to gain knoledge of the law. tell him so and then move up the chain.

    write a letter to the ATF asking if parts with numbers on them from a fire arm reported destroyed to the DOJ can be used in a differant fire arm.

    IMOO you are using parts from a reportedly destoyed fire arm there are companys who destroy firearms for police departments and sell the parts (including Sagias and SARs) to the general puplic. it seems to me that he is biased and citing laws that dont apply to the PARTS you have. the numbers can possably be legaly removed at that point but that opens a whole new can of worms IMOO.

    you can try to see if a smith can do as he stated with two numbers on a form and drill and tap the trunion fore hand and simply get the smith to install the screws and do the paper work. than you dont need to turn in any thing. IMOO that is complete BS

    It really pisses me off when a honest person trys to to the correct honest thing and gets treated like hes attempting to commit a crime. it not like you have a stolen pistol with the numbers ground off and are trying to circumvent the the law.

    worst case scenario is you buy a new trunion and use the rest of the parts although they likely have some numbers on them as well.

    all the gun boards and the NRA need to itroduce legisation that makes the firearm laws more clear and that the ATF is acessable to the puplic in a more timely manner with responses to legal questions. Its litteraly impossable to get a clear answer to any thing and when you do it is often not the same twice ERRRRRRRRRRR

  8. #28
    Gunco Veteran Markp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contract_Pilot View Post
    I called the sheriff again... still bad news

    Looks like this one will stay in its oiled bag in the back of the closet until I get a response back from the state attorney general.
    He is wrong, on as 1biggun said, first of all, it's no longer a firearm if it has been properly demilled. So make sure the receiver was de-milled to ATF standards and take several pictures of EVERYTHING DISASSEMBLED, WITH DATE AND TIME STAMPS. Once it is de-milled it is NO LONGER a firearm. Further, you are under no obligation to report the destruction of the weapon, unless your locality has an ordinance about that. The key is having pictures, keep a log book of the build (bound only), and document everything you do.

    Then take pictures of the parts immediately after removing any numbers from the parts. Before and after with DATE and TIME STAMPS. This is your evidence that you were not altering a firearm, but altering firearm parts, WHICH is legal unless your state has a law against that.

    Finally build your gun, no serial numbers, and go be happy. There is no FEDERAL law that requires you to put a serial number on this weapon if you decide to build it. I am not a lawyer, so I think you're smart in writing the AG, hopefully he will get it right.

    Mark

    PS - I'll buy it off you if you're worried about it for what you paid for it!!!

  9. #29
    Gunco Maniac sjohnson's Avatar
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    Forget date and time stamps, they can easily be altered. Take a picture with a local newspaper showing the date, before destruction and after. Yes, that too can be forged but not as simply as changing the date on a camera.

    Good points 1biggun. I must have a tough time reading, it only now came clear to me that on the Saiga the serial number is ONLY stamped on the trunnion and not the receiver. Bad decision on the part of the ATF to let them in that way!

    Destroy the receiver THEN the trunnion becomes simply a part. Go BEYOND ATF guidelines. Demill the receiver so only the trunnion remains attached, then torch the heck out of it, with one saw cut just behind the trunnion done to protect it. Leave only enough markings to positively ID the original Saiga.

    And kindly inform the Sheriff that Hadji builds these with a rock inside of a mud hut - and that you're better equipped than ol' Haj!
    I have a daughter. I tell her, "911 is what you dial after you're raped. 1911 is what you should have before they try."

  10. #30
    Gunco Veteran Markp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjohnson View Post
    Forget date and time stamps, they can easily be altered. Take a picture with a local newspaper showing the date, before destruction and after. Yes, that too can be forged but not as simply as changing the date on a camera.

    And kindly inform the Sheriff that Hadji builds these with a rock inside of a mud hut - and that you're better equipped than ol' Haj!
    Well if you have them printed commercially, you have pretty hard proof to ignore. That is probably the best way, upload them to a webservice that lets you print. Third party storage and printing of the image is hard to ignore.

    Mark

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