Gunco Forums banner

why is it better??

8K views 29 replies 20 participants last post by  1biggun 
#1 ·
I'm new to ak's and I've been looking for a yugo m70 ab2. I've been given some references to go to a saiga....so what makes them better and what is the equal to an m70? thanx
 
#2 ·
A Saiga is a Russian AK. Yes, it has to go through a bit of conversion before it looks like an AK again....but the receiver is russian and a true AK, so to speak

The M70 is a yugoslavian rendition of the AK. It has other unique features likes a bulged trunnion and a grenade sight and adapter.
 
#6 ·
I have a hard time comparing a Saiga to a true russian AK the parts are lighter in almost every aspect. IMOO there nothing special. there are guys who think by conveting them to look like a military rifle they are some how getting a true Ak due to its russain recive kind of make me chuckel. The quality of some of the Saigas is pretty bad as far as fit and finish. they are new true but then you got to rip it apart to make it what you want so in the end you get a non original weapon. some day unmodifed Saigas might be worth something because of the many that were modifed LOL. If you could find a Yugo that was quality built on new parts and had a good reciver like a NDS id get it over a modifed Saiga in a heart beat even if it was $200 more.

I have several saigas and to me there nothing specail thay all have some type of flaw from the factory. If i wasent into AK,s and building them I would not look twice at them. many air soft rifles have better furniture, the factory Plastic saiga stuff is about as crapy as it gets. I havent seen a really accurate Saiga yet not sure why posably the barrels are not up to snuff. I saw a thread some were a 308 owner was braging about
2" groups I was thinking my 100 year old worn out 30-30 could do better. personalu the Saigas scream cheap. I look at them as parts kits with a reciver.
 
#7 ·
The only real Yugo rifles in this country are Yugoslavian Mitchell pre ban imports and they are the cream of the crop. Anything else and its luck of the draw on the parts kit or the builder. Same with the Saigas but with the saiga at least you get a new chrome lined barrel. I'd take a well built converted Saiga over a Yugo rebuild if I was buying a finished gun if both were comparably priced.
 
#8 ·
The big concern with Yugos is that sometimes you'll find they weren't maintained well, or at all! and that's what leads to the "luck of the draw" situation. The current build process for Yugo kits is to use a US-built barrel with all the original parts and refinish. You can have a really good rifle or if the parts were not maintained well you can have an "OK" rifle.

My yugo is rock-solid. My buddy's is too. Both are different vintages as his was built mid-90's, either just before or during the conflict so it may not have seen service. Mine is an 80's era build and had carving on the stock... an obvious participant. Other than a tighter fit on things like the grenade shut-of sight, both are great rifles. They are built heavy for rifle grenades and therefore you get a heavier duty rifle. Also you get a WAR RELIC which is something a Saiga never was. To me, that's something I can pass along with the historical significance... "a build from parts that were in the Bosnian conflict" etc.

Saigas are the hot potato right now since they are actually rifles and not just parts kits. Many home builders don't have all the tooling to do the entire kit build and therefore like the "ease" of the basic Saiga conversion. As has been said a "complete" conversion requires a bit more effort but the end result is something that looks just like the current-issue rifles.

I say get one of both! :D
 
#9 ·
the saiga is made by the "izhmash" factory in russia. the same plant that has cranked out millions of AK-47, AKM and ak-74s for the soviet union. some seem to think "tula" marked AKs are better. but i haven't found anything that proves it is somehow better than the izmash made AKs.

the saiga is just a castrated AKM--with the evil assault weapon features removed for the US market.

the price of a new saiga in not much more than a "kit" and your getting a brand new hammer forged chrome lined barrel made to soviet military specifications.

i can't say that a saiga is better than a yugo. and i can't say a yugo is better than a saiga either.
i can say i would take a new saiga over a used yugo parts kit with a dark bore and no chrome in the barrel.

i have yugos and saiga rifles --they shoot very well. i would give a slight edge to the saiga made rifles due to the barrel being new. either rifle it comes down to the shooter--that is how close they really are.
 
#10 ·
I have owned both and own both, The Saiga is a great rifle to convert or leave alone and shoot. Anything feels lighter when shouldering a 70ab1, the Saigas I have owned have been in great F&F condition and have shot 1" groups. I love the Yugo who can't love the Yugo it feels like a rifle should feel but if I had to hump one all flipping day I think I would take the Saiga. I just built a M70-2 from virgin kit and it performed as well as any other AK and Saiga that I have owned. I always have felt this debate is really more opinion then and likability like a Camero vs Firebird It really comes down to what you like and how it feels. I like them all Yugo, Romy, Hungy Russian, Chicom and even the VZ. Buy it, Build It, or convert it......Lets just keep shooting it and them.
 
#12 ·
Take a m70 trunion in your hand and a Saiga trunion in yur hand and you will see a vast amount of differance. The weight is a factor but honestly how many of you are really going to be packing yor AK all day???? for target and play the weight is mice as it knocks down recoil.

I dont see how any one can say a gun with a $3 stock and a spray on finsh with crap stamped all over the side from the manufacturer and importer and plates riveted to the botttomto cover were the pistol grip should be with a horable trigger Good Fit and finish. even the wood furniture ones are worse then some really cheap guns. even if it all fit and worked properly it would still be a poor finish due to the cheap furniture alone.

If reworked they can be/are a good gun but not the way they are out of the box. the 7.62x39 and 223"s are decent deals for a working gun but the 308 is way over priced IMOO it doent cost them $5 more to make a 308. Im betting its the importers who jacking the prices up. It makes no sence for them not to ship over more 308's 243's but there still scarce it cant be that hard for them to make more of what the customer wants.

may 308 saiga is the least accurate AK variant I have BTW its good enough for hunting out to 250 yards but It aint great. I suspect the trigger is most of it. even if i had to rebarrel a Yugo id still take it over the saiga in 7.62x39. Id like to try a 223 Saiga the price is right on those.
 
#13 ·
Nobody considers an out of the box Saiga to be a usable rifle. Its a neutered joke. Its after the conversion is done that the Saiga becomes a usable rifle. It has a few holes that need to be welded up and they need a paint job but all the stuff that it needs to be useful are there. Besides...Nothing says quality like "Made in Russia"

Sorry... I couldn't resist.
 
#17 ·
I really like my .223 Saiga. It replaced a junky Romanian WASR I picked up at a gun show. It wouldn't hit a barn from the inside. This Saiga shoots more accurately than me: I'm the limitation now.

I removed the stock FCG and polished all the connecting areas, after careful reading of many threads on the subject. It took out most of the grittiness.
 
#18 ·
In my opion I enjoy shooting my saiga 223 accurate have not had one problem with the rifle to all of you on a budget don't be discuraged by the negative threads about this rifle enjoy the price the reliability and the mods you do. A friend of mine is attending a the Insight Tactical Traing Course with his modified saiga 223 and he is not giving up a thing to the AR guys also attending this course. Target shooting hunting defend your home and family I am not affriad to depend on my saiga. Master your life master the fire arms you have and that you can afford modifiy as your budget allows the masses have screamed for fire arms like this.
 
#19 ·
A lot of people that hate on Saigas, are probably just prejudice against ANYTHING Russian...., or just don't like it unless it's American made....basically Over-complicated.

I love russian rifles, they knew how to do it right the first time....by keeping it simple.

The only Saigas that are good out of the box, are the .308's(for hunting), and the 7.62x39's with the skeleton stock.(then buy a bigger magazine).

And they are perfect for more gun-restrictive states.
That's actually one of the reasons they've sold SO well....
But the other reason, is because of solid build quality, and it's an excellent platform to start with for an AK build....because it's New out of the box, and SUPER affordable.
They come with cheap plastic front-hand guards, and plastic stocks.

But that's the reason they are so cheap.....they skipped out on the cosmetics, and the fancy stuff. You just move the trigger forward, add the feed-ramp, file down the Mag-catch, and add whatever cosmetics you want.
And you have a custom made Russian AK.
 
#20 ·
The only Saigas that are good out of the box, are the .308's(for hunting),
I doubt you would think that if you had ever handled the two I have had. One was unfunctional and the other as just rough in every aspect you litteraly will cut your self just handeling it. a 1/4" of trigger pull is worthless on a hunting rifle or any thing else for that matter. . Im not sure id call $500 plus for one as super affordable. you can buy a Remington auto all day long in sevral differant caliburs and they will take a scope that is mounted correctly. I have seen several browning BAR in that price range used that I take in a heart beat over the Sagia for hunting. the mags are two pricey as well.

As a hunter I would pass(run away) on a Saiga in stock form for hunting ( I litteraly refused to let my son or friends use mine for that. I built my kid a converted AK insted when I have two stock 308 sitting here) . the accuray is not great the factory sights suck and the trigger is the worst of any rifle I have ever fired. the scope mounts are generaly to high for the stock to get a good check weld. The fact they charge extra for the 308 over the others is a bummer as well. If a 308 was avaliable for $350 or $400 Id think about it with a trigger upgrade. i have a wood stock set for one and its so-so much beter than the plastic.

I could care less were it came from. mine are just a three lug bolt and trunion waiting to be made into something much better.

IMOO they sell because they are AK related and can be converted and modifed to a assult style/AK looking rifle. Done right the conversions are pretty good and a good deal for the money. put a workable trigger On one and a scope mount that is not a side mount or attaached to the reciver drop the price to level that other almost identical appearing sagias cost. (it dont cost $10 more to have a extra lug) An smooth out all the rough edges throw in a second mag and Id consider changing my opinion.
 
#21 ·
I'm not all that sold on Saigas, the last X39 I had buldged case bases so bad I sent it back and got my money back before it blewup in my face. If you want a AK type platform gun cheap ,they work. I've got the 308 and it's OK but like 1biggun says you can go out and get a new Savage, or many other good guns for the price of a Saiga, and it will shoot circles around it. Not as fast, but whats better 30rounds cutting air or 5 rounds cutting hair????? What really sucks about Saigas is the expense of the mags 30-40 bucks for a 8rnd plastic mag!!!! Give me a break. And not all of us want to go into a major re-build on a new gun just to smooth out the rough edges and make it function better and to have a trigger that doesn't feel like a mall ninja plastic crossbow. I'll take my 500-700 bucks to buy a Savage 110 or some thing like that, that will hold a 3/4moa group. + helps support the workers in THIS COUNTRY. Hell you can go out and get a new CZ or Weatherby for the price of a done up Saiga, and you got a REAL GUN when your done.
 
#23 ·
With all of their flaws, Saigas are still the best starting point for an AK build today; unless you are going to go crazy and have a custom barrel machined down from a match grade blank or something, then use whatever barrel-less kit you want. Short of that, a Saiga still has the best barrel on the market (hammer forged, chrome lined, new), and for best accuracy the barrel and the ammo are everything in an AK.

Realistically speaking, for somebody who just wants a good AK, kit builds are DEAD. Other than to a few die-hards like the members of this forum, it no longer makes a whole lot of sense to build from a parts kit, when an original barreled kit, plus a receiver and build parts, will cost as much as or more than a new Saiga, which can be fired out of the box without doing anything extra to it. Sure, you've got to put some more money and time into it to make it right, but in return you'll have a rifle that is built with all new parts, with what is realistically the best barrel currently available.

No offense intended to those of you still building from kits. You've got my utmost respect for what you have to go through these days compared to when the kits were intact and cheap. But, it's a hobby, and the fact is, anybody still doing it that way isn't doing it because it is the best, easiest, or cheapest way to get an AK. You're doing it because it's something you enjoy doing. Even if you bought all your kits when they were cheap, it's a good idea to take the current market value into account. I did, and I sold the last of my kits, because building it just didn't make a lot of sense to me anymore. I've never been into building rifles that replicated any particular style/nation of AK, and if I build another AK for myself, a Saiga will be my kit.

As far as the crappy Saiga trigger and crappy finish go, who really gives a rip? Almost nobody is advocating keeping it stock anyway. I put an RSA adjustable in my S-308 and it is the bee's knees. When I'm done tinkering with it, I'll have it gunkoted and that'll be that. And yeah, there will be some artifact holes left in the receiver after conversion. If they bother you, it's no big deal to weld them up, or put rivets in them. On the models with the extra trigger pins, you can convert to the modular style stock, and get a receiver block with allen head screws in those locations. I have my S-12 set up that way, and it's much more solid than the regular internal receiver blocks IMO. I wish my .308 receiver had those holes, and I'm seriously thinking about adding them.

People bitch about the difficulty of installing standard AK hand guards too, but I actually like the Saiga fore-end. It's comfortable to hold, and I think it shifts the point of impact less as the barrel heats and cools. Sure, the sling swivel sucks and it will break if you try to carry your rifle with it, but it's pretty easy to swap that out for a 10-32 threaded Uncle Mike's.

So on the whole, the Saiga offers a good value to people who just want a utilitarian AK that will give them the best chance at having better than usual AK accuracy, and a starting point with all new parts. For now, anyway. Maybe something better will come along that will change things (like maybe some premium grade US made barrels). I hope that it does, because there is certainly still a lot of room for improvement over the Saiga.
 
#24 ·
will cost as much as or more than a new Saiga, which can be fired out of the box without doing anything extra to it. Sure, you've got to put some more money and time into it to make it right, but in return you'll have a rifle that is built with all new parts, with what is realistically the best barrel currently available
hmmmmm IM NOT SUURE HOW GREAT A DEAL IS IF THE GUN DOSENT SHOOT OUT OF THE BOX. TWO OF MY FOUR HAD TO BE FIXED TO MAKE GO BANG AND CYCLE. THE BARREL MAY BE CHROME LINED BUT THER ENOT VERY ACCURATE IMOO SO WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL IF ITS CHROMED LINED OR NOT IF IT DONT SHOOT GOOD. i HAVE FIXED AT LEAST THREE OTHERES THAT WERE REALLY F@#KED UP AND UNSAFE . ONE THE LUG ENGAGEMENT WAS COMPLEATLY OUT OF WACK CAUSING A FALSE HEAD SPACE CHECK BECAUSE THE BOLT TWISTED SIDEWAYS WHEN FIRED. ANOTHER THE HEAD SPACE WAS OFF BY OVER .012" AND WASS PLITTING BRASS CASES( X39) AND SHOOTING 6" GROUPS AND THEN THERE WAS THE ONE WERE THE TOP OF THE CARRIER HIT THE RSB WERE THE DUST COVER FITS IN. THEY MAY BE RUSSIAN BUT THERE NOT MIL SPEC AN INSPECTED VERY WELL AT ALL. MAYBE I HAVE HAD BAD LUCK BUT I LOOK OVER ANY USED SAGAI VERY CLOSELY KNOW WHEN I BUY THEM AND THE NEW ONES SHOULD NOT NEED TO BE FIXED TO START WITH.

THERE ARE A EXCELENT STARTING POINT BUT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO USE THE GUN FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN SHOOTING MILK JUGS YOU NEED TO FIX IT FIRST.. THE TRIGGER IS A JOKE AND NOT EVERY ONE FEELS THEY SHOULD OR CAN REPLACE IT. A 1/4" OF TRAVEL ON MY 308 IS A TOTAL JOKE MIGHT AS WELL SHOOT A MUSKET. I LOOK AT THEM AS A ASSEMBLED KIT WITH A RECIVER INCLUDED. AS FAR AS BEING MORE AUTHENTIC. THERE AS AUTHENTIC AS ANY NUTHERED AND THEN MADE TO WORK CORRECTLY AK CAN BE i SUSPOSE AND ONCE THERE CONVERTED THERE JUST A MODIFED IN THE USA WEAPON AND THE THERE QUALITY IS UP TO THE MODIFER. I DONT THINK THE RECIVER IS ANY THING SPECIAL AT ALL.

I CANT BUILD A 223 AS CHEAP AS I CAN BUY A SAGIA BUT THEN I HAVE TO MODIFY THE SAGIA SO ITS A CATCH 22 REALLY. TO ME A 223 THATS NOT 1MOA OR BETTER IS WORTHLESS IMOO EXCEPT FOR PLAYING NINJA. I DONT SEE THE SAGIA BING ANY MORE ACCURATE IN X39 THAN A STANDARD FACTORY BARREL AK INFACT THEY MIGHT BE WORSE.


THERE WORTH THE MONEY (NOT THE 308 IT NOT WORTH THE $250 EXTRA) AS THEY COST ABOUT WHAT A KIT COSTS WITH A BARREL BUTS THATS ABOUT IT.

YEA I LIKE THE FORE END AS WELL I HAVE USED MANY ON MY HUNTING PISTOLS (SEE MY ADVATAR) BUT I LIKE THE WOOD ONES BETTER IF I CAN FIND THEM CHEAP AND THAT NOT EASY.

A GOOD BUILDER WITH ALL THE TOOLS AND A LATHE CAN STILL BUILD A MUCH BETTER MORE ACCURATE GUN CHEAPER THAN WHAT IT COSTS TO BUY AND MODIFY A SAGIA IN X39 BUT HE WILL HAVE TO BUY PARTS CAREFULY AND DO A LOT OF EXTRA WORK. I HAVE RECENTLY BUILT S SEVERAL 1" MOA 308X39'S FOR AROUND $250 BUT I HAD TO MAKE PROFILE AND CHAMBER THE BARREL AND MAKE THE RECIVER FROM SCRATCH. BUT I ALSO HAVE A CUSTOM SCOPE MOUNT AS WELL AS A GOOD TRIGGER. WOULD I SELL THEM FOR UNDER $700 EVEN IF I COULD? NO

A $110 BARREL LESS KIT AND A LOT OF WORK AND BASIC OTHER COSTS CAN BUILD A REALLY GOOD $250-$350 AK YOU CANT DO THAT WITH A STOCK SAIGA. BUT YOUR RIGHT YOU GOT TO BE A HARD CORE EBUILDER WITH ALL THE MACHINE SHOP STUFF TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.
 
#25 ·
I think bad luck probably has a lot to do with your experience. I only have one Saiga rifle (.308) and it has been fine. I think I only put one box of ammo through it before I converted it just to make sure it worked, so I don't really have much to say about the stock trigger. Threw it in the trash and never looked back. Also, almost nobody will say that an Arsenal is garbage and they are almost all converted Saigas these days.

BTW, would you please turn off the caps lock when you post? It makes it hard to read and it also makes you look like an idiot.
 
#26 ·
SO YOUR MAKING YOUR ASSMENT OF THE SAIGA LINE OF RIFLES BASSED ON OWNING ONE RIFLE THAT GOT SHOT 20 TIMES BEFORE YOU FELT IT NEEDED OR WANTED IT TO BE MODIFED?? IM NOT SURE THAT IS A REALLY VALID ASSMENT.

I DONT OWN ANY ARSENAL MODIFED SAGAS BUT AYTHING WOULD BE BETTER THAN A SAIGA IN STOCK FORM PERTICUALRY THE TRIGGER. WHAT IS THE GOING RATE OF A ARSENAL??? I DOUBT THERE CHEAP AND IT BUTS THE OPTION OF BUILDING FROM SCRATCH BACK ON THE TABLE.

I HAVE OWNED 4 NEW ONES OF THOSE TWO DIDNT WORK WITH OUT REPAIRS THE OTER TWO WERE CRAP AS FAR AS FIT AND FINISH BUT THEY WENT BANG . I HAVE OWNED NUMERIOUS OTHER USED SAIGAS AND ALL OF THEM I GOT CHEAP BECAUSE THEY HAD KNOWN ISSUES THAT NEEDED ATTENTION.

I HAVE ALSO FIXED FOR SEVERAL OTHERS THAT WERE ALL F$#KED UP FROM THE FACTORY. SEVERAL WERE IN VERY DANGERIOUS CONDITION.

I CANTT THINK OF ANY OTHER FIRE ARM I HAVE OWNED THAT HAS AS MANY FIT AND FUNCTIONS ISSUES OUT OF THE BOX AS THE SAIGA.

TO ME THERE A ASSEMBELD PARTS KIT AND THAT ASSEMENT WILL NOT EVER CHANGE.
 
#27 ·
Absolutely one rifle is a limited sample size to judge the whole breed. On the other hand, it sounds like known defective Saigas tend to find their way to you because you have the skills to make them work, so the ones that you come into contact with can't be considered a representative sample either...

And yeah, I never said that Izhmash doesn't put out a troubling percentage of lemons, just that by and large, the Saiga represents the best deal going for the basis to build an AK at this time. On another forum, the question was asked what would you do to build an AK given a budget of something like $1500 (IIRC). My response was that I'd buy a side mount and basic scope, and however many Saigas I could get with what was left over. Then I'd range test them all off a dead rest using PREMIUM ammo (cor-bon, etc). I'd keep whatever one showed the best accuracy, then sell the rest to get my capital back and put the proceeds into building the Saiga up into something really nice, with a TWS rail and a high quality scope.

Again, if you expect one to be ideal right out of the box, you're going to be disappointed. But as the basis to build a rifle on when the alternative is a kit of surplus parts that costs just as much to start with when you factor in the receiver, I'll take the Saiga any day.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top