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Thread: Saiga-12 gas piston and 922r

  1. #41
    Chief Administrator 7.62x39's Avatar
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    MAA has finally changed their listing.
    Now they're saying that the ATF has never officially stated which part they consider to be the piston. I would have thought that either tromix or one of the other manufacturers who have been selling pucks and listing them as the 922r countable part, would have got a determination before listing them as such.
    There could be an awful lot of people running around with illegal shotguns right now. That sucks and is very irresponsible of those who sold them the pucks.
    The vast majority of us try very hard to follow the letter of the law. I wonder what recourse someone would have against tromix et al, if they got jacked up over a 922r violation while using their product.

    Here's MAA's revised product description

    On AK's and on Saiga rifles, the steel shaft extending off of the bolt carrier is the gas piston. In the Russian American Armory factory manual, the puck-shaped disc located in the gas block is defined as the gas piston. ATF has not issued any special ruling on this. There has been no known disseminated ATF statements to indicate that the "puck" is not the piston.The TAPCO piston is made in the United States and if the traditional steel shaft extending off the bolt is determined to be the piston, the part will counts as 1 US part for 922r compliance.
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  2. #42
    BANNED nalioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7.62x39 View Post
    MAA has finally changed their listing.
    Now they're saying that the ATF has never officially stated which part they consider to be the piston. I would have thought that either tromix or one of the other manufacturers who have been selling pucks and listing them as the 922r countable part, would have got a determination before listing them as such.
    You're forgetting one very important fact:

    The revenuers reverse prior 'rulings' all the time.

    They are not the law, they tell us what they think the law means, so whatever they rule, if it gets to a court of law, any layman can pick out a piston.

  3. #43
    Gunco Member IRONMULE's Avatar
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    Hello I would think get all the minimum USA made parts required to meet 922r, then buy one or two more USA made parts based on low cost or the good looks,then no more worries, just spend a little extra money to be on safe side of 922r and then be happy that we have a neat weapon. IRONMULE

  4. #44
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7.62x39 View Post
    MAA has finally changed their listing.
    Now they're saying that the ATF has never officially stated which part they consider to be the piston. I would have thought that either tromix or one of the other manufacturers who have been selling pucks and listing them as the 922r countable part, would have got a determination before listing them as such.
    There could be an awful lot of people running around with illegal shotguns right now. That sucks and is very irresponsible of those who sold them the pucks.
    The vast majority of us try very hard to follow the letter of the law. I wonder what recourse someone would have against tromix et al, if they got jacked up over a 922r violation while using their product.

    Here's MAA's revised product description

    On AK's and on Saiga rifles, the steel shaft extending off of the bolt carrier is the gas piston. In the Russian American Armory factory manual, the puck-shaped disc located in the gas block is defined as the gas piston. ATF has not issued any special ruling on this. There has been no known disseminated ATF statements to indicate that the "puck" is not the piston.The TAPCO piston is made in the United States and if the traditional steel shaft extending off the bolt is determined to be the piston, the part will counts as 1 US part for 922r compliance.
    Tromix never did, he stated that in passing on a thread on the Saiga-12 forums a few years back. He was certainly going off of that parts diagram just like ATF did.

    That "puck" is a tappet according to what I've read. AKA operating rod. Still a US part IMNSHO.

    I say let sleeping dogs lie for now, and if and when ATF changes their mind, Hotbarrel can whip up some US-built pistons/tappets/extensions/whatever-it-is-called-thing-a-ma-bob for us

    As for being out of compliance, if they suddenly say "wait a minute" you could REASONABLY argue the point that "as soon as possible" would be the mindset for redoing your parts. Case in point, the MG-42 semi builds suddenly got a 922r parts count clarification applied to them about a few years ago, and the MG-42 semi owners simply had to get US-built parts for their builds. Done deal.

  5. #45
    Happy Camper hcpookie's Avatar
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    Found that post.

    Tony is using logic to determine this to be the piston, and assuming ATF will do the same. He also says at the bottom he has other US parts as well. All food for thought. Of course with ATF logic doesn't seem to apply!!!! This was in 2005, so here we are 4 years later and not a peep from ATF. I am still of the opinion let sleeping dogs lie, and if we need to cross that bridge later then so be it.

    Gas plug US PART? - forum.Saiga-12.com

    So Tony have you actually communicated with ATF about the S-12 gas piston vs carrier extension deal? I replaced the part that's called a gas piston in AKs to stay in compliance with my foreign furniture and threaded bbl. if what you said about that is true then I'm still not in compliance unless I replace one more part. How much are those "gas pistons" like the one pictured above.
    No, I have not asked the ATF for a clarification on the gas piston versus the carrier extension.

    It does not matter either way to me since I change enough parts to U.S. that I don't need to change one of these.

    Technically speaking though, a piston is not a "GAS" piston unless it's under direct gas pressure impingment. The carrier extension see's no direct gas impingment, thus it is merely a piston, not a "gas" piston.

    You can have all sorts of pistons, mechanical, hydraulic, knumatic, etc, but each see's direct impingment from some other form of energy. In the case of the Saiga, that energy is gas from the barrel.

    My guess is that the ATF never disassembled the Saiga, so they were probably unaware that there was a seperate gas piston in the cylinder and just assumed the carrier extension has hit with direct gas impingment like any other AK.

    Of courese the ATF could rule either way, that's why I don't rely on that particular part as one in my U.S. "count".

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