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Saiga-12 gas piston and 922r

10K views 44 replies 12 participants last post by  hcpookie 
#1 ·
According to the ATF letter that Pookie posted they (ATF) treat the parts count just like a milled receiver AK. (No Trunnion, but otherwise the same as a stamped receiver)

The Saiga has a floating piston and what looks like a normal piston used as a operating rod.
If the floating piston is what is considered as the piston by the ATF, as evidenced by Tromix's US made part. Why is the normal piston looking part not considered an operating rod? After all, they consider a FAL cocking handle as an operating rod in the FAL count (which is a real stretch in my humble opinion)

Here's my question. Which part is the ATF really considering the piston?
 

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#3 ·
I'm not replacing either, I've already made my parts count. FCG and furniture = 6
I'm just curious as to whether or not Tromix is actually selling the right part.
I just can't believe that the ATF would not count the normal looking piston as a op rod if they are counting the floating piston as the actual piston.
 
#4 ·
That has been precisely my contention from the beginning! Compare the parts to an SKS action, and then you'll see why I wonder.

The "operating rod" aka "tappet" would be what that part is defined as... and when compared to an AK, that part connected to the bolt carrier is indeed the "piston".

Now re-read that ATF letter. No mention of operating rod whatsoever!

SO... the way I see it, the real question is, do you:

a) assume the ATF mis-typed the letter and replace both parts to keep with the spirit of the law?

b) proceed on the current data and replace that which Tromix or Hotbarrel sells to keep with the letter of the law?


I think "B" for now.

Frankly, it is a trivial matter to replace the piston, and I know Hotbarrel could whip us up a batch in no time.

Therefore, if ever the ATF recants and produces amplified documentation, you could have the additional part(s) installed and ready to go before the next trip to the range! :)

IMHO. I'm sure others will disagree.
 
#10 ·
I wonder if the magic number the ATF comes up is some how connected the manufacturer's parts break down.

Here's a scan of the factory Saiga breakdown.
Notice that what we normally refer to as the carrier and gas piston (#15) is all one unit and is called a bolt support. The puck (#8) is referred to as the piston (correctly)
Also notice that the barrel (#2) and what we call the trunnion, are also one piece.

Maybe that's why the ATF does not include a gas piston/op rod or a trunnion in their count?
 

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#11 ·
Good find! They indeed call that the piston and that count makes it 13. By definition that's what it is - the part that is actuated by gas pressure - so it makes sense. By definition an operating rod on autoloading rifles like the Garand is what we may call the charging handle. But on an AK the operating rod and bolt carrier are the same part, just like the hammer and sear. I am fairly certain they call a tappet on other guns the operating rod - like on the SKS or G36. Going from memory here so I can't be certain.

I am only concerned they will pull a stunt like they did with the FAL charging handle and "suddenly" decide the bolt carrier extension is actually an Operating Rod and therefore a new part. Again, that will take little effort to build and I would not be too worried about it either way! I suppose if they REALLY wanted to get pissy about it, they could identify the striker (#22) as another part! LOL

Based on that pic, and the already-published ATF doc, 13 is indeed the number of parts. Good for us. Easy to modify if necessary! :D



Here's a question - if I were to make a thicker bolt carrier extension, would that cause any change to the action? Would it possibly reduce the recoil since the extra mass would absorb some of the recoil energy? Thinking totally in terms of performance now... would be similar to reducing the size of the gas port. Could be a way to make the system more tunable... ?
 
#12 ·
Based on that pic, and the already-published ATF doc, 13 is indeed the number of parts.
Once you add in the missing PG, you will be at 14.

Comparing our normal AK count to above breakdown

(1) Receiver = #1
(2) Barrel = #2
(3) Trunnion = N/A
(4) Muzzle attachments N/A ?
(5) Bolt = #16
(6) Bolt carrier = #15
(7) Gas piston = #8
(8) Trigger = #31
(9) Hammer = #33
(10) Disconnecter = #37
(11) Buttstock = #47
(12) Pistol grip = not shown
(13) Forearm handguards = #49
(14) Magazine body = #53
(15) Follower = #55
(16) Floorplate = #58


I currently have FCG=3, PG=1, total =4
I will be changing out the forearm as soon as Scott's are finished, probably the stock as well. There's 2 more. Using the AGP mag adds 3 more. At that point I will have a total of 9. More than enough, even if they do decide to change the count.
When I add the MD, it will be US made also, so it will cancel itself out.
 
#17 ·
Hey I was browsing the Saiga-12 forums and saw an old post where Tromix said they didn't have an official letter from the ATF saying that was in fact the gas piston, but that they were proceeding on the premise that it is, given the fact that that is what the factory documentation calls it (DUH!!!).

So to answer my original question, no they don't have an "ATF letter of blessing", but that *IS* the piston as we've already established, so I can't see a problem by using one of them. Just like we don't need an ATF letter saying that Scott's new tri-rail handguard is actually a handguard! ;)
 
#18 ·
I'm not so sure the piston is as cut and dried as the handguard.
A handguard is a handguard, (with the exception of the AMD-63 and 65, and how many threads have we seen pop up on that subject).

In this instance we have to totally separate parts which could be considered the piston. While I totally agree that the puck is, and should be referred to as the piston. I still can't believe that the ATF is not counting the traditional looking piston as a 922r part. In theory it should be counted as a op rod, but isn't.

I'd really like to see it clarified by the ATF, just to be positive.
 
#20 ·
The aftermarket "piston" that Tromix and others are selling serves what function?........

If you dont call that the piston, what would you call it? ..........

I dont think you've got any grey area legally.
Now if you want to argue that BATF doesnt always use their "grey matter", then thats a whole nother debate :lol:

Cheers, HarvKY
 
#23 ·
There you go trying to use logic again.
That's the whole point of this thread. You can't use logic when trying to interpret anything the ATF does.

In the two photo's below (ignore the fact that one has the bolt in it)
According to the ATF, one is a pic of a carrier and a piston, two countable parts. The other is a carrier and that's it, no piston, (not even a op rod) and is only one countable part.

Where's the logic in that?
 

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#27 ·
It is not just one person who makes these decisions. First one person at the Technology Branch made up a list of guns and their parts counts. Then as folks wrote in to ask about other guns, whoever got assigned the task of answering the letter made the decision. Throw in political pressure on top of all that and you get the results that we see.

-Yarro
 
#29 ·
Well, now.

That certainly throws a wrench in the theory.

Which part IS the countable one?

Do you need both for it to count?


My money is on Tromix getting the go-ahead before producing the puck. I'd stay away from this one as a 922r part.
 
#41 ·
MAA has finally changed their listing.
Now they're saying that the ATF has never officially stated which part they consider to be the piston. I would have thought that either tromix or one of the other manufacturers who have been selling pucks and listing them as the 922r countable part, would have got a determination before listing them as such.
There could be an awful lot of people running around with illegal shotguns right now. That sucks and is very irresponsible of those who sold them the pucks.
The vast majority of us try very hard to follow the letter of the law. I wonder what recourse someone would have against tromix et al, if they got jacked up over a 922r violation while using their product.

Here's MAA's revised product description

On AK's and on Saiga rifles, the steel shaft extending off of the bolt carrier is the gas piston. In the Russian American Armory factory manual, the puck-shaped disc located in the gas block is defined as the gas piston. ATF has not issued any special ruling on this. There has been no known disseminated ATF statements to indicate that the "puck" is not the piston.The TAPCO piston is made in the United States and if the traditional steel shaft extending off the bolt is determined to be the piston, the part will counts as 1 US part for 922r compliance.
 
#42 ·
MAA has finally changed their listing.
Now they're saying that the ATF has never officially stated which part they consider to be the piston. I would have thought that either tromix or one of the other manufacturers who have been selling pucks and listing them as the 922r countable part, would have got a determination before listing them as such.
You're forgetting one very important fact:

The revenuers reverse prior 'rulings' all the time.

They are not the law, they tell us what they think the law means, so whatever they rule, if it gets to a court of law, any layman can pick out a piston.
 
#43 ·
Hello I would think get all the minimum USA made parts required to meet 922r, then buy one or two more USA made parts based on low cost or the good looks,then no more worries, just spend a little extra money to be on safe side of 922r and then be happy that we have a neat weapon. IRONMULE
 
#45 ·
Found that post.

Tony is using logic to determine this to be the piston, and assuming ATF will do the same. He also says at the bottom he has other US parts as well. All food for thought. Of course with ATF logic doesn't seem to apply!!!! :D This was in 2005, so here we are 4 years later and not a peep from ATF. I am still of the opinion let sleeping dogs lie, and if we need to cross that bridge later then so be it.

Gas plug US PART? - forum.Saiga-12.com

So Tony have you actually communicated with ATF about the S-12 gas piston vs carrier extension deal? I replaced the part that's called a gas piston in AKs to stay in compliance with my foreign furniture and threaded bbl. if what you said about that is true then I'm still not in compliance unless I replace one more part. How much are those "gas pistons" like the one pictured above.
No, I have not asked the ATF for a clarification on the gas piston versus the carrier extension.

It does not matter either way to me since I change enough parts to U.S. that I don't need to change one of these.

Technically speaking though, a piston is not a "GAS" piston unless it's under direct gas pressure impingment. The carrier extension see's no direct gas impingment, thus it is merely a piston, not a "gas" piston.

You can have all sorts of pistons, mechanical, hydraulic, knumatic, etc, but each see's direct impingment from some other form of energy. In the case of the Saiga, that energy is gas from the barrel.

My guess is that the ATF never disassembled the Saiga, so they were probably unaware that there was a seperate gas piston in the cylinder and just assumed the carrier extension has hit with direct gas impingment like any other AK.

Of courese the ATF could rule either way, that's why I don't rely on that particular part as one in my U.S. "count".
 
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