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full-auto conversion pre '86 ?

7K views 36 replies 19 participants last post by  Gun Trust Lawyer 
#1 ·
Hi, just curious, but was an individual allowed to convert his own weapon to select fire/full auto pre May 1986 and register it? Tom
 
#2 ·
i think it had to already be registered at the time of the ban, so i'd say no unless your class 2, but even then it'd have to be out of your possession or destroyed within a year.
 
#3 ·
Good Question.



So if I had mailed AKs home, like everyone and his brother was doing from Nam in 1968, would I have been able to register them?
They used to toss the war booty in a pile and ask who wanted them.
Mostly Russian and Chinese AKs.
Hell we used to trade AKs for cases of peaches. Not a lot of guys wanted those junk wooden toys. :frown: We liked peaches. :)
But good question Tom. I still don't know what happened between 1968 and 1986?
Can an 07 still build legal full auto, register and sell? Or did everything have to be registered before 1986?
 
#4 ·
Before the cutoff, an individual could manufacture an MG, and register it as a transferrable title-2 weapon.

Regarding the question "could I register an AK I mailed home from Vietnam?".....the answer is no....unless it was brought back prior to the amnesty in 68 and registered then, it would always be considered a contraband item.....

Many unregistered guns had their receivers cut, then were rewelded/remanufactured on a form 1 prior to '86........making them legal/transferrable.

Any MG made since 86 will be a dealer sample, and not transferrable to individuals
 
#7 ·
There are 2 types of dealer samples........

MG's imported /registered prior to 1968 are transferrable.

MG's manufactured in the US / registered prior to 1986 are transferrable.

MG's imported after 1968, and before 1986 are referred to as "pre-may" or "pre-86" dealer samples.....meaning they may be transferred only between licensed dealers. These guns may be retained by the dealer when his license expires.

MG's imported after 1986, or built domestically after 1986, are referred to as "post-86" or "post-may" dealer samples. They may be sold only to Law Enforcement / Govt, or to dealers that can provide a Law Enforcement / Govt "demo" letter. If the dealer gives up his license, these guns must either be destroyed, or transferred to a qualified dealer/agency/etc.........this is why you see so many HK416, MP-5, G-36 parts kits......easier to destroy the receivers and sell the parts than it is to find qualified buyers.
 
#8 ·
Very Interesting.

Thank You.
See "L.O. only" full auto on Gunbroker once in awhile.
Huh. If I start a new town and run for Police Chief can I buy one? Cool. :)
Our little town of Astor is patrolled by the Lake County Sheriffs. Were unincorporated.
Hmmm!! Now yah got me thinking.
4th for Police Chief. :)
 
#21 ·
Thank You.
See "L.O. only" full auto on Gunbroker once in awhile.
Huh. If I start a new town and run for Police Chief can I buy one? Cool. :)
4th for Police Chief. :)


Nice idea. In fact, the department would own any NFA weapons. Upon retirement, an individual police officer would not be able to have one (called constructive possession). In principle he could use one under department auspices. In some states like mine, retired police officers are not automatically granted a carry permit for their pistols so using an M/G would be under very specific circumstances like training.

The only way an officer could buy an NFA weapon is if it were registered by the department as a transferable which means the department is old, or they paid market rates for it after '86.

That 1986 law restricted ownership severely. The number of transferables goes down over the years as individuals buy them for their collections and the amount available is reduced.

There is a reason for this - the anti-gunners won. Over time, only the very rich will be able to afford them.

 
#9 ·
That is actually an idea I've thought of before. Besides cheap toys they can buy LE can get all sorts of toys free from the government. Last I heard they can go to any DOD auction beforehand and basically cherry-pick any equipment they want for free. Pay for the shipping, and they can order free M16s from the DOD as well. Prices have really gone up, but back about 89 or so Shotgun News had ads for police only surplus West German MP5s, complete with a half dozen mags and accessories for $500 each. M14s were $350. A Steyr MPi69/81 SMG could be had for $500 as recently as 5 years ago.

BTW, licensed NFA Manufacturers can basically build all the MGs they want, no letter needed as they are licensed to build them not just sell them. Almost any MG they could want for essentially the cost of a parts kit and a receiver. Costs $500-1000 per year in taxes to stay in business, but they get to have a lot of fun.
 
#10 ·
Class II manufacturers can also import one technical samples for reference. It is unclear what they consider enough variation between like firearms. The class II mfg I talked to said that importing variations for reference is somewhat of a crap shoot as one guy gets approved and another does not. These must be destroyed once the project they are needed for is over, but many retain them for future reference or the project stays on going.

-Yarro
 
#14 ·
Cool Vids.

having an 07 / sot allows you to do this: rpdvideo2
Have you thought about M.G. rentals? Your own range, people go and shoot a full auto.
Insurance would be up there I would bet.
There is a place west of me here in N.Central Florida does rentals on M.G.s.
My girlfriends brother went there and shot some rounds. Expensive, but no lack of people waiting to shoot.
 
#12 ·
That 86 rule is total BS being in my late 20's I showed up way to late for the full auto club got a lot of M240G time in the Marines but it's just not the same as owning one. I am looking at getting maybe a AC556 or a Mac10 I want a RDIAS for the AR's I own but the 10k-12k price tag is to high and 5k-7k is my limit
 
#13 ·
The MAC series is probably the best value in FA firearms. Many manufacturers are now making belt fed uppers that use the registered MAC lower as the trigger group, lets you own an "almost" MG42 or whatever for a fraction of the cost of a transferable original. Lots of "normal" uppers for it as well, makes them a much more accurate and useful firearm than the "room broom" they started out as.
 
#15 ·
A local gunshop does SMG rentals. $30/first 30 rounds, you buy the ammo at cost after that. They even have an indoor range for shooting them, the MG never leave the premises. Kinda expensive but fun!
 
#17 ·
Super Nice...

That weapon looks bad to the bone without spittin lead. Nice. :thumbup1:
Damn I should have bought that M60 for just under 10 Grand 10 years ago. :tearsdrip
 
#19 ·
BigAl how dose that AC556 group? all most bought a mini-14 but after shooting it (the groups were so piss poor) I bought two AK's. Is the full auto decent? Will it do a man size target at 300yrds or is it a less than 100yrd gun?

By group I'm talking in semi-auto can it do 3" or less at 100yrds
 
#20 ·
OOPS, looks like Ernie Wren's MAC based RPD and M249 uppers were re-classified as MGs at some point. He used to set up at Knob Creek, beautiful beltfed uppers. There were at least 2 other vendors there who were promising similar uppers soon. Len Savage is/was also working on them, but after he made ATF look like fools in court he could submit a Pepperoni Pizza to tech branch and they would classify it as an illegal MG conversion device. A couple others were trying to get them going as well, but with the current lack of kits unless they stockpiled some for their projects it looks like they may never go into serious production. Bummer, they were really cool and somewhat affordable in the $5-7K range.
 
#23 ·
With drop in auto sears and auto connectors you could even do it yourself, just file the proper forms and pay the tax, then swap in a few simple parts once it came back approved. If you were handy with tools, FIREPOWER magazine back in the day ran a how-to conversion article on a different gun every issue.
 
#24 ·
In early 1986 I was looking at purchasing an M16. They were about $600-$650 at that time. During the time that I was looking, the "new machine gun" ban passed and the prices went through the roof. A couple months later I bit the bullet and paid $900 for an M16 Shorty. My friends told me I was crazy, but in the end I really came out great. I still remember seeing BAR's for $300 and one of my friends bought an M2 50 cal for $1000. He sold his 50 last year for $25,000.
 
#26 ·
I purchased a case of Colt M16A2's from Colt after they had lost their contract to the Feds...ten rifles with consecutive serial numbers...for $192.00 apiece, + shipping. They had a warehouse full of them and were offering a case price to NFA dealers. I think that was in 1986? ( braindead?) Got them all on a form 3. Sold them all in ones and twos on form 4's. The last one sold for $12,000. That was a few years ago. Wish I still had them to sell now......:(

My friends all thought that I was crazy...I pointed out that I could strip off the receivers....destroy them...and then sell the parts kit for more trhan I paid for the complete rifles. Glad I did not do THAT.

Paid cash for a new Corvette with the proceeds from a couple of them. Should have kept the M-16's...the Ex ended up with the Vette. :(
 
#27 ·
So how do private militia's like Blackwater purchase NFA full auto weapons brand new... Blackwater is not a government agency and has no legal authority to own the hardware they do, no more than any common citizen does.

Where is the loop hole that allows them to purchase any damn weapon system they want?

Mark
 
#28 ·
No loophole, they do the same as you or I could. Blackwater has FFL licensing. Plus, you're only talking in-country possession by them, not the "office."

I'd be pretty secure in a wager that any contract work in other countries includes the ability to legally acquire and use necessary firepower.
 
#30 ·
hmmm, if they work with FFL licensing, can the entire company run under the license of 1 FFL 07. Seems possible, sketchy but doable.. If that's the case, might as well start a company, make a bunch of buddies, employee/owners and sell machine guns to others who become employee/owners...

I can't imagine blackwater being county LE, they have no legal jurisdiction... or at least they shouldn't!

Mark
 
#31 ·
Apparently Congress authorized some military contractors to be exempt from the Hughes Amendment ('86 MG ban) :

BillingsGazette.com :: Burns', Tester's views align on gun rights

"Both men also said they favored doing away with a 1986-passed cap on the number of fully automatic weapons available for sale. At that time, Congress limited the number of fully automatic guns - guns that will fire as long as the trigger is pressed - to those in circulation in 1986. Since then, the price of these limited weapons has gone up. However, civilian police forces are exempt from the cap, and recently Congress allowed certain military contractors to be exempt from the 1986 cap, too".


No idea what law they are talking about, but they seem to know of it. Likely an obscure amendment tacked onto a school lunch program or somesuch. The new ATF reform bill that is sitting in Congress apparently wants to expand that exemption:

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

(b) Sale or Delivery of Machineguns to Federal Contractors- Section 922(b) of such title is amended by adding at the end the following: `Paragraphs (2) and (4) of this subsection shall not apply to a sale or delivery to comply with a contract between any person and the United States which requires that person to provide national security services for the United States or any training related to the services.'.
 
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