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Thread: Full Auto AKS-74

  1. #11
    BANNED nalioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4thIDvet View Post
    The 3 round burst was a super great idea the Military implemented. Makes sense, as a Soldier would get much more control to stay on target with the 3 round burst.
    Not so, mon ami.

    The "feature" you describe is more accurately called a "3 round limiter". The 3 round still leave the rifle at the same speed they would on 'full auto', which means that if the soldier started with a COM point of aim, his third shot would impact at the top of the head or over it.

    The "3 round" feature was touted as "increasing accuracy" during sales talks, but the reality fell far from the promise.

    Heckler and Koch weapons have a real "burst" feature available on some of their lowers. When "3 round burst" is selected, the rate of fire jumps up to 2000 rounds per minute, providing one *BANG* and one recoil with every 3 round burst fired.
    Last edited by nalioth; 03-31-2009 at 02:30 PM.

  2. #12
    White Cracker 4thIDvet's Avatar
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    Post Interesting.

    Never fired 3 round limiter. Would like to try it sometime.
    2000 RPM is intense.
    Would still kind of think, used properly, it would help keep someone closer on target than squeezing full auto.
    I pissed a lot of tree tops off with 20 round mags full auto.
    "Man needs but two things to survive alone in the woods. A blow up female doll and his trusty old AK-47" - Thomas Jefferson 1781


  3. #13
    Gunco Member grayfox's Avatar
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    Troy lives just a few miles from me. He does GREAT work.

  4. #14
    BANNED nalioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4thIDvet View Post
    Never fired 3 round limiter. Would like to try it sometime.
    <snip>
    Would still kind of think, used properly, it would help keep someone closer on target than squeezing full auto.
    Well, with proper training, full auto can be accurately employed.

    The 3 round limiter was a bean counter measure to keep the trees safe, er, reduce the ammo bill.

  5. #15
    Gunco Good ole boy kernelkrink's Avatar
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    Nalioth, you are thinking of the HKG11 caseless rifle in regards to the burst increasing ROF. Everything else HK makes with a burst trigger pack is same ROF as FA. On the G11 the mechanism recoils inside the outer casing, in FA mode the mechanism makes a full back and forth cycle before the next round is fired automatically. When the burst mode is selected it fires 3 times during the rearward stroke, the last bullet has left the muzzle before the recoil impulse is really felt. On their conventional cased ammo rifles the ROF is limited by the speed the bolt can cycle. As the bolt closes on FA it trips the auto sear and drops the hammer to fire the next round, in burst mode a ratchet mechanism "counts" however many cycles it is made to limit and stops the hammer fall after that limit is reached, then resets on trigger release. If your average MP5, for example has a FA cyclic rate of 633 RPM in order for it to hit 2,000 you would have to speed up the bolt cycling to 3 times faster. I dunno how a trigger group could do that.

    The caseless G11 is capable of 2,000 RPM because the mechanism only loads and fires the cartridges, no extraction or ejection needed so it's very fast. They actually slowed the FA mode down so it would be more controllable and conserve ammo.

    The standard HK burst mechanism is much superior to the M16, it resets itself back to zero even if less than a full burst is fired. The M16 does not, if you stop a burst shy of 3 it will fire the rest of the burst on the next trigger pull. From what I understand it also makes the trigger pull suck, in semi auto the burst mechanism is still active so each succesive pull feels harder until it resets every third shot. Read a report somewhere that some marines were breaking their burst mechanisms to get better trigger pull and accuracy in the sandbox.

  6. #16
    Gunco Regular allesennogwat's Avatar
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    The H&K burst pack is pretty easy to damage and too easy to install improperly. That's why the "Navy" trigger pack does not have burst. They had too many accidents when they tried the burst pack. H&K makes burst packs in both two and three shot versions. The two shot version really seems more useful but the three shot is more popular.

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    White Cracker 4thIDvet's Avatar
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    Post Interesting Info guys.

    Talked to my neighbor, a retired Deputy L.O. instructor for Orange County Florida.
    He had the great job of getting free ammo and firing about every weapon made.
    Tough job, but somebody has to do it.
    His words. The MP5 was the best "Full auto" weapon he ever fired. Stayed rite on target and accurate as hell.
    My Navy Seal buddy used them also and loved them.
    For some reason ??? they stopped using them just before his retirement and gave them something else.
    Think?? the MP5 is what you see the S.W.A.T. teams using?
    Guess there not cheap. $$$
    "Man needs but two things to survive alone in the woods. A blow up female doll and his trusty old AK-47" - Thomas Jefferson 1781


  8. #18
    Gunco Addicted for life j427x's Avatar
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    Post1911 m4 & m4a1

    Quote Originally Posted by kernelkrink View Post
    Nalioth, you are thinking of the HKG11 caseless rifle in regards to the burst increasing ROF. Everything else HK makes with a burst trigger pack is same ROF as FA. On the G11 the mechanism recoils inside the outer casing, in FA mode the mechanism makes a full back and forth cycle before the next round is fired automatically. When the burst mode is selected it fires 3 times during the rearward stroke, the last bullet has left the muzzle before the recoil impulse is really felt. On their conventional cased ammo rifles the ROF is limited by the speed the bolt can cycle. As the bolt closes on FA it trips the auto sear and drops the hammer to fire the next round, in burst mode a ratchet mechanism "counts" however many cycles it is made to limit and stops the hammer fall after that limit is reached, then resets on trigger release. If your average MP5, for example has a FA cyclic rate of 633 RPM in order for it to hit 2,000 you would have to speed up the bolt cycling to 3 times faster. I dunno how a trigger group could do that.

    The caseless G11 is capable of 2,000 RPM because the mechanism only loads and fires the cartridges, no extraction or ejection needed so it's very fast. They actually slowed the FA mode down so it would be more controllable and conserve ammo.

    The standard HK burst mechanism is much superior to the M16, it resets itself back to zero even if less than a full burst is fired. The M16 does not, if you stop a burst shy of 3 it will fire the rest of the burst on the next trigger pull. From what I understand it also makes the trigger pull suck, in semi auto the burst mechanism is still active so each succesive pull feels harder until it resets every third shot. Read a report somewhere that some marines were breaking their burst mechanisms to get better trigger pull and accuracy in the sandbox.

    i don't know about the HK's but the m4 and other versions of the m-16 series came with 3 shot burst. the later version m4a1 has just semi and auto. there was one more version that had semi three shot burst and auto that was developed for the navy.

    the m4 and m-16 with the three shot burst was/is known for its hard and jagged trigger pull--sometimes 7.5lbs or more!!

    the added parts in the FCG were an additional complexity--and the inability of the three shot system to reset to a full three shots after a partial burst made it not too popular with folks in the field. many were converted to m4a1 configuration.

    i carried the m4a1 most of the time. which i never found to be a problem with the switch turned all the way back. if you were easy on the trigger you could get a two shot burst--with the option to "soak" the target with more if needed.

    i think the DOD wanted the three shot burst deal to save training time and money. which i believe was a mistake.

  9. #19
    BANNED nalioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j427x View Post
    i don't know about the HK's but the m4 and other versions of the m-16 series came with 3 shot burst. the later version m4a1 has just semi and auto. there was one more version that had semi three shot burst and auto that was developed for the navy.
    If you can count distinct shots, it's not a burst, it's a limiter.

    The purpose of the 3 shot burst is as outlined above - to get one apparent "recoil" and one apparent "*BANG*" with 3 shots being sent downrange.

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