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A Reminder of Why You Can't and Don't Want to Convert Your AK to full Auto.

138K views 284 replies 141 participants last post by  2ndAmendican 
#1 ·
These internet Assault Weapons discussion boards invariably attract newbies or gun-owners with a little bit of warped enthusiasm who just can't get it out of their heads how neat it would be to convert their AK to full auto.

In discussions with people I meet, who are invariably new to guns, I keep hearing how easy it is to convert your AK to full auto by filing on this or that part.

I'm tired of it.

To manufacture an AK as a semi auto weapon, a different fire control group is used; a different bolt carrier is used; and the receiver is machined slightly differently. You as a civilian cannot legally find any way on earth to convert your lawfully-purchased semi-auto AK to full auto. Period. End of Story. I won't go into the laws here, but suffice it to say that if it wasn't already what is called a "fully transferable" full auto AK, dutifully registered as such by the Federal Government, then you can't own it. Deal with it.

Now, let's say you're one of those adventurous people who likes to go tell people that all you have to do is file down the disconnector so it won't grab the hammer and you have "instant full-auto".

Here's why that's not wise:

1. It's illegal. You will be decades older by the time you get out of Federal Prison for doing it. There is no parole in Federal Prison. Twenty Years is twenty years. I'm not saying that's the sentence you'll get, buy you understand my point. Firing more than one round with one pull of the trigger may be fun, but it's not worth being married to a guy covered with tattoos for several years.


2. It's dangerous. I deal a lot with gunsmiths; I read a lot of engineering literature on firearms. I understand how firearms work and don't work. I have repaired my own personally-owned AK's. I know what breaks them and what fixes them. Over the last ten years, I have also rubbed elbows with enough gunsmiths who have had to "fix" home hobbyists' misguided projects that I know enough not to EVER want to convert a semi-auto AK to full auto.

The AK-47 action is not "timed" . We all know about revolvers, and how they are "timed" so that the round is not fired until the cylinder has locked on a fresh chamber, and the chamber is lined up properly.

A full-auto AK-47 has an extra lever just forward of the hammer that holds the hammer back until the bolt is fully closed and locked. It also prevents the hammer from falling unless the round is fully seated in the chamber. This is to prevent the gun from firing "out of battery", and possibly blowing pieces of the firearm into your face. Because the AK action is not "timed", the hammer could very well fall too soon without this lever holding the hammer back until tripped by the bolt carrier.

This is why a full-auto AK has different parts: it requires a special hammer and a special bolt carrier to interact with this trip lever.

When an AK is manufactured in semi-auto only, the little lug on the bolt carrier that trips any full-auto lever is machined off. Plus, the hammer on a semi-auto only AK is machined not to allow that little trip lever to fit under the front of it; not to mention the fact that the receiver does not have the extra hole required for that trip lever to be installed.

Sometimes, manufacturers of semi-auto only AK's also machine off a little tab on the rear of the disconnector, and the corresponding tab on the safety lever that pushes the disconnector out of the way so it doesn't grab the hammer on a full-auto gun.

So, you, as the home gunsmith about to take his life in his hands, decides to "file" down something to make the gun full auto.

Assuming that when you file down the disconnector, the gun doesn't just stop firing at all as the hammer follows the bolt carrier into battery, you have just created a bomb patiently waiting to blow your face off.

Since the AK action is not "timed", your little file job has created a situation where there is NOTHING to prevent that round from firing as soon as the bolt face touches it. The hammer falls with the bolt carrier, and so will detonate the primer as soon as it can, whether the round is chambered and the bolt is closed or not. So instead of that full auto AK you always wanted, you now have one that will eventually kill or injure you or bystanders the first time it fires a round out of battery.

That is why you don't want to illegally convert your semi-auto AK to full auto.

__________________________________________

On a similar subject, those of you who read the above carefully realize that there is nothing to prevent a semi-auto AK from firing out of battery either. This is technically true, but the tolerances of the AK-47 are loose enough that I have literally never heard of an AK firing out of battery (I'm not saying it's never happened--just that I've never heard of it).

The lack of "timing" is not an issue, since "timing" only applies to full-auto fire. The disconnector will hold the hammer on a semi-auto AK until you let go of it, and it is humanly impossible to let go of the disconnector faster than the action can cycle. So this is not a problem.

The one worry might be that if your AK gets so full of crud that the bolt won't close properly, then you might have a problem with firing out of battery, but I have literally fired hundreds of rounds through AK's without cleaning them, and I've never had a problem. Suffice it to say; clean your weapon occasionally, and if you drop it in goop so that the bolt lugs might be gunked up enough to prevent the bolt from closing, then your gun needs a thorough cleaning before you try to fire it again. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

:smile:
 
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#52 ·
ZOID ZODIAN said:
Your reasoning is sound; however, keep in mind that if "slam-firing" on full-auto were not a problem, then the Russians would not have added the hammer retarder device to the AKM to keep it from firing out of battery due to excessive bolt carrier bounce. That is, the firing pin must be capable of hitting the primer or this would not have been a problem.
Or the carrier bounce caused firing to stop because the hammer was hitting the carrier tail instead of the firing pin. The bolt itself is fully locked before the carrier stops its forward travel. Look into the magwell of an empty gun as you let the bolt and carrier travel forward slowly. The bolt stops rotating while the carrier is still shy of stopping. That carrier would have to bounce a whole lot before the bolt itself unlocked!

JP, you may have heard stories from people who are honest, but have they ever tried it themselves, or demonstrated (and got to work) the actual method to you? I have heard from many otherwise knowledgeable people that "the 7.62X39 AK47 was designed in that caliber because their rifles could chamber and fire the 7.62X51 (.308) our M14 rifles used in Vietnam, but their ammo would not work in ours." They believe it and repeat it because someone they trusted told them so. Even laying the rounds side by side will not convince some people of the impossibilty of it. :confused:
 
#54 ·
I cant go into details but you dont modify any existing parts and YES I saw it demonstrated at a FA shoot in Las Vegas. The person who informed me of it was also a C3 owner so he could legally show me the "mod" with his AK since it was already a C3 rifle. Anyway its not a big deal Im just saying the logic of an unlocked bolt slam fire doesnt work with me, I cannot see it happening because as you said there is no way the hammer can come anywhere near the FP until it is locked solid into battery....

Im not saying all this to convince people to mess with their rifles to get FA illegally, I am trying to debunk the rumour that the cartridges will "explode" inside the receiver shell and cause shrapnel to maim you. I can see a 3x proof load blowing a locked breech up, or maybe having a stuck slug in the bore and shooting another round to cause it to "pop", but I have a hard time believing a .308 let along a 762x39 would explode like a 'grenade as everyone suggests...All you gotta do is rig something to hold a cartridge in a vise and rig a remote firing pin. When you light off a cartridge that isnt in a chamber it's pretty pathetic what happens. The bullet pops outta the case and goes about 10ft away and the case goes the opposite direction about 10ft. Think of Newton's law of force...If the cartridge isnt supported from behind when it goes off the kinetic energy is split 50/50 to the bullet and the case and it really doesnt do anything dramatic....

Another way to try it is to use a regular glass-fuse fuse block for a car. They fit .22LR rounds perfectly. Put a .22LR in where the fuse would go, apply direct 12V to each terminal on the fuse block (REMOTELY) and the 22LR will go POP and come apart. Its totally un-eventful (I saw this on MythBusters on Discovery Channel..they had a myth that you could kill someone w/a 22LR in their fuse box...myth busted)

OT: It did get me thinking maybe there is someway to make a semi-automatic (or single shot) electrically fired rifle w/out a firing pin or mechanical ignition system at all. Im thinking you would have to make a teflon sleeve to fit in the chamber to isolate the round from the breech to allow a short circuit THROUGH the cartridge to make it light off.....

ANYWAY IM DONE arguing this topic. I could care less if someone wants to think their AK will blow up on them, maybe it will keep some IDIOTS from trying something IDIOTIC like making an illegal MG by dicking around with their AK... Remember kids making an illegal NFA weapon buys you 10yrs @ Club Fed....

ALL INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS THREAD IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY. ANY ATTEMPT TO CONVERT AN AK IS AT THE RISK OF THE OWNER. JPGLEE1 INC HOLDS NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR MORONS DOING ILLEGAL CRAP. CONSIDER YOUR SELF WARNED OF THE POTENTIAL PIT_FALLS. DONT DO IT, ITS NOT WORTH IT!!!!!!!!
 
#55 ·
wow, this lousy thread is still open? gotta comment on two replies that are way off the mark:

zodiac, the rate reducer is in place to limit the cyclic rate for purposes of controllability. a krink (lighter carrier) can be made to safely run over 1000 cpm, but is not controllable. 600 cpm is better, and 450 cpm is ideal with an ak.

lee, your bud is right on the mark. field expedient mods can make any semi go full, but are hazardous, as they usually involve defeating the disconnector. kalashnikov installed a safety sear on the third pin to retain the hammer until the bolt was closed for a reason.
your assesment of the danger of an uncontained case is correct if the case is clamped in a vise. if it is entering a chamber of a rifle that is not quite closed (lugs not rotated by the carrier cam), and fired by a following hammer, things are very different. in this case, there is enough containment to allow an acceleration of the rate of combustion that all progressive propellants experience when contained. this firing will bloop the bullet into the lead, contained combustion will expand the case, allow the unlocked bolt to be driven backward, and vent gas, possibly injuring the operator.
the mechanics of this require fractions of a second to occur, and the case, which is not quite fully entered into the chamber (or perhaps entered, but the carrier has not followed enuf to rotate the lugs into lockup), will fail at it's base, seperating the head from the case wall, which is expanded against the chamber walls tightly. very dangerous situation.
most guns are designed to vent gas from a failed case thru the magwell. keep your hand on the handguard when shooting. do not adopt a target style pose that involves placing the hand under the mag floor plate.
 
#56 ·
Maybe someone has already said this, but doesn't the little tab at the end of the bolt carrier keep the gun from ever firing out of battery?

Take the top cover off your rifle and then slowly cycle the action. Watch the hammer as you close it and see when it can finally hit the back of the bolt.... it doesn't happen until it is all the way forward because that tab keeps the hammer back until then.

Also, it was my understanding that if the part of the disconnector that catches the hammer was removed you would most likely be creating a single shot weapon because there would be no delay for the hammer to hit hard enough since it would be riding that tab on the carrier forward the whole way.

Of course, I'm no expert so.... maybe not?
 

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#57 ·
justashooter said:
wow, this lousy thread is still open?
..........
kalashnikov installed a safety sear on the third pin to retain the hammer until the bolt was closed for a reason.
What you call a "safety sear" is in fact the "hammer releaser" which is tripped by a tab on the bolt carrier (which we call, pathetically quaking in fear, the "auto sear").

This allows the selector to be in the "disabled disconnector" (i.e. full auto) mode without the hammer following the bolt carrier forward.

The hammer retarder reduces the need for close tolerances between the bolt carrier and the hammer releaser. As a bonus, it also reduces the cyclic firing rate to a more reasonable speed.

Roger
 
#58 ·
Krupski said:
What you call a "safety sear" is in fact the "hammer releaser" which is tripped by a tab on the bolt carrier (which we call, pathetically quaking in fear, the "auto sear").

This allows the selector to be in the "disabled disconnector" (i.e. full auto) mode without the hammer following the bolt carrier forward.

The hammer retarder reduces the need for close tolerances between the bolt carrier and the hammer releaser. As a bonus, it also reduces the cyclic firing rate to a more reasonable speed.

Roger
you gotta be kidding me? i'm gonna ring mikael and have him set you straight.

hammer releaser? the safety sear controls the hammer release, buddy. same thing in all auto-rifles in this class (ar, fal, whatever) that fire from a closed bolt and floating firing pin.

the rate reducer is all about cyclic rate. nothing to do with tolerances. is possible to change rate by replacing the fly-weight on the reducer with one of a different weight, or grinding on the existing one (only increases rate). simple physics.

{wraps arm around wayward young soul in fatherly way}
"come into my workshop for a bit, and we can work on your understanding of the mechanics of auto-rifle function..."
 
#59 ·
jpglee1 said:
OT: It did get me thinking maybe there is someway to make a semi-automatic (or single shot) electrically fired rifle w/out a firing pin or mechanical ignition system at all. Im thinking you would have to make a teflon sleeve to fit in the chamber to isolate the round from the breech to allow a short circuit THROUGH the cartridge to make it light off.....
been done and is in testing by the military. they use caseless ammo lined up 1 after the other in the barrel
 
#60 ·
from what i understand, full auto is only good for military applications, such as laying down suppressive fire against LARGE numbers of enemies.

when i say large, i mean that the only benefit for full auto is for a military squad not an individual, or small group.
its a tactical option for true military battles. anyone familiar with war tactics know that the amount of firepower and ability to project "walls of lead" is extremely important for winning battles.
 
#61 ·
i would be a little more conservative about the type of knowledge we share in the forums my good man. knowledge can easily be misconstrued as something as "interesting" by people with ulterior motives. lets keep in mind that we are all strangers here. we dont know who's at the other end of a screen name. just a word to the wise.
 
#62 ·
half_wolf said:
i would be a little more conservative about the type of knowledge we share in the forums my good man. knowledge can easily be misconstrued as something as "interesting" by people with ulterior motives. lets keep in mind that we are all strangers here. we dont know who's at the other end of a screen name. just a word to the wise.
Agreed, this post should have been put to rest before being pinned. I've got no interest in F/A unless I'm at Knob Creek or Bulletfest. Don't need a reason "why", common sense is what it's all about. Plenty of our internet afficiandos have been hammered for breaking the law. I can dump 30-40 rounds in no time on semi alone, fun's fun when blasting a barren hillside. ZZ seems to have been somewhat extinct for months unless he's Falfiles regular?

This was but one of his "for interest to all" posts before flying the 'coop that was copied and pasted to every internet gun board...No offense towards his effort, it's just not a relevant topic for most members. Those who choose to do otherwise? They'll be caught and prosecuted. Moot issue for the bulk of gun enthusiests.

Pretty much a moot issue... Full-auto is for those who pay for the stamps and allow federal pigs to investigate at will. Legal, transferable AK's aren't worth the money unless you've got plenty to waste. (Hell, you could buy several F/A's for the $$ for an AK and have three times the fun...)

No thanks, I'll take my semi's, shoot pop bottles, paper, and varmints. As if I could afford to throw thousands of rounds downrange full-speed for nothing but potential prosecution.

Dead thread, started by the spokesperson for Bulgarian (semi) superiority. (search ZZ as nec., Bulgarian AK's are the Creme de la Creme....)

Let's kill this one or condense it down to the realistic points nec. to have any bearing on anything realistic.

It's running the edge of the stupid home-made tannerite thread that suggested using componants likely to put one on a terorrism watch list.

As Barney Fife would say: "Nip it! Just nip it! Nip it in the bud!"

Gawd knows, plenty of Federal Barney's patrol the boards. Don't feed the swine.(they eat everything...)
 
#64 ·
NEVER! you'll never take me alive copper...first one thru the door is coming with me...

LOL

Just build a shorty AK and live with that shit on your side. When BATF comes knockin have one last show down and let them take your iron off your dead body...

Or, I could *wake up* LOL

Agreed, this thread is dangerous... the info I provided earlier was just FYI kind of stuff... Having been to Vegas and shot a full auto AK, I can tell you its not that fun/usefull... I tried wide open mag dumps and when braced and setup properly you CAN empty an AK mag into the 10 ring on a target at 25feet, but it takes concentration... FA is for suppressive fire and close-in CQB... anything over 25feet is getting more and more useless... Having fired a real Chicom F/A AK in Vegas I can tell you that AKs seem MUCH more usefull and controllable doing 2 and 3 rd bursts...first shot in right knee, 2nd waist area and 3rd in left shoulder... Thats how the russians are taught to use their AKs... let the recoil strafe the target... up and to the right..

I would say F/A is for terrorists and big military units/organizations (NOT the FARC LOL) and that the max a civilian could really use effectively would be 2-3 round bursts. A stock AK w/600rpm cyclical is real controllable. No probles rocking off 2 and 3 rd controlled bursts just using timing.... its a nice slow rate of fire. Not like the 1800RPM of the Mac-11 .380 they had...SHEESH... all 30rds in the air before the 1st casing hits the floor..

Have a good one!
 
#65 ·
Evil_WalksII said:
.........
It's running the edge of the stupid home-made tannerite thread that suggested using componants likely to put one on a terorrism watch list.
.........
We're all probably on a "terrorist watch list"...

Remember:

* Illegal aliens=OK / Encouraged
* Criminals=Protected By Law and Taxpayers Dollars
* Average Joe / Jane American Family=TERRORISTS!!!

They can "watch" me all they like... but if anyone tries to mess with me and accuse ME of being a "terrorist"... well let me just say that Kevlar ain't gonna do the job.

Roger
 
#66 ·
justashooter said:
you gotta be kidding me? i'm gonna ring mikael and have him set you straight.

hammer releaser? the safety sear controls the hammer release, buddy. same thing in all auto-rifles in this class (ar, fal, whatever) that fire from a closed bolt and floating firing pin.

the rate reducer is all about cyclic rate. nothing to do with tolerances. is possible to change rate by replacing the fly-weight on the reducer with one of a different weight, or grinding on the existing one (only increases rate). simple physics.

{wraps arm around wayward young soul in fatherly way}
"come into my workshop for a bit, and we can work on your understanding of the mechanics of auto-rifle function..."
Tell ya what... download a copy of the Kalashnikov patent... go to the drawing which shows the fire control group (as WE call it), then ask someone who is fluent in Russian to tell you what the "safety sear" is called on the drawing.

Then... look at the thingy between the trigger and the disconnector... ask what that's called ON THE BLUEPRINT.

When you're done, I'll gladly accept your apology. :D

(btw, "young soul" is relative. I'm 48... how old are you?)

Roger
 
#71 ·
This is good advise guys. You don't want to go to jail for something as stupid as this. When I was much younger, and had half my brain up my butt, I came real close. I had an unregistered WWII .45 acp under the front seat of my car. Nothing could happen.... right? Wrong! I was pulled over for a simple traffic violation and the pistol was discovered. This was in the Peoples Republic of New Jersey. The offense carried a mandatory one year prison sentence. Eighteen years old and facing a mandatory prison sentence in Rahway, isn't where you want your life going. I really lucked out and was able to get the charges dropped, but it could just as easily have gone the other way. No freedom, no guns EVER, a past felony conviction following me around the rest of my life. So think twice, and don't do the dumb thing. IT AIN'T WORTH IT!
Big Blue
 
#74 ·
I give a copy of the first part of this thread to everybody I help building theyre first ak kit. It keeps curiosity at bay.I have bump fired my fal, my bushmaster ar15, and all my aks,romys,bulgys,hungarians,all with great succsess. Useless but fun. Once I had a prob. with hammer on an ak following bolt carrier forward from hammer,trigg. rec. holes wallowing out from no heat treat. The gun did not fire out of battery. On the other hand I talked to a class III dealer that had an eye put out from a Ruger AC556 that fired out of battery on full auto. Go figure.
 
#75 ·
God will you guys chill, I don't like anyone telling me what kind of gun I can or can't own and would like a full auto to hang on my gun rack but like it has been said it would cost first born to be able to fire it. It is not that big of a thing to let it be and stay with a semi auto take your hate on the gov. for telling you what you can and can't do, it cost $50.00 to build a new AK 47 that is what the US Gov. is paying Jorden for them, and look what we have to pay for them. If you go to e-Military Manuals and get the AK 47 Manual it has all the info on how to make your gun into a full auto and yes you need the right parts!
 
#76 ·
kdbaki said:
God will you guys chill, I don't like anyone telling me what kind of gun I can or can't own and would like a full auto to hang on my gun rack but like it has been said it would cost first born to be able to fire it. It is not that big of a thing to let it be and stay with a semi auto take your hate on the gov. for telling you what you can and can't do, it cost $50.00 to build a new AK 47 that is what the US Gov. is paying Jorden for them, and look what we have to pay for them. If you go to e-Military Manuals and get the AK 47 Manual it has all the info on how to make your gun into a full auto and yes you need the right parts!
:lame: :why: :deadhorse
whatever ones opinion it is best to obey the law and to stay out of prison. :)
 
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