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A Reminder of Why You Can't and Don't Want to Convert Your AK to full Auto.

138K views 284 replies 141 participants last post by  2ndAmendican 
#1 ·
These internet Assault Weapons discussion boards invariably attract newbies or gun-owners with a little bit of warped enthusiasm who just can't get it out of their heads how neat it would be to convert their AK to full auto.

In discussions with people I meet, who are invariably new to guns, I keep hearing how easy it is to convert your AK to full auto by filing on this or that part.

I'm tired of it.

To manufacture an AK as a semi auto weapon, a different fire control group is used; a different bolt carrier is used; and the receiver is machined slightly differently. You as a civilian cannot legally find any way on earth to convert your lawfully-purchased semi-auto AK to full auto. Period. End of Story. I won't go into the laws here, but suffice it to say that if it wasn't already what is called a "fully transferable" full auto AK, dutifully registered as such by the Federal Government, then you can't own it. Deal with it.

Now, let's say you're one of those adventurous people who likes to go tell people that all you have to do is file down the disconnector so it won't grab the hammer and you have "instant full-auto".

Here's why that's not wise:

1. It's illegal. You will be decades older by the time you get out of Federal Prison for doing it. There is no parole in Federal Prison. Twenty Years is twenty years. I'm not saying that's the sentence you'll get, buy you understand my point. Firing more than one round with one pull of the trigger may be fun, but it's not worth being married to a guy covered with tattoos for several years.


2. It's dangerous. I deal a lot with gunsmiths; I read a lot of engineering literature on firearms. I understand how firearms work and don't work. I have repaired my own personally-owned AK's. I know what breaks them and what fixes them. Over the last ten years, I have also rubbed elbows with enough gunsmiths who have had to "fix" home hobbyists' misguided projects that I know enough not to EVER want to convert a semi-auto AK to full auto.

The AK-47 action is not "timed" . We all know about revolvers, and how they are "timed" so that the round is not fired until the cylinder has locked on a fresh chamber, and the chamber is lined up properly.

A full-auto AK-47 has an extra lever just forward of the hammer that holds the hammer back until the bolt is fully closed and locked. It also prevents the hammer from falling unless the round is fully seated in the chamber. This is to prevent the gun from firing "out of battery", and possibly blowing pieces of the firearm into your face. Because the AK action is not "timed", the hammer could very well fall too soon without this lever holding the hammer back until tripped by the bolt carrier.

This is why a full-auto AK has different parts: it requires a special hammer and a special bolt carrier to interact with this trip lever.

When an AK is manufactured in semi-auto only, the little lug on the bolt carrier that trips any full-auto lever is machined off. Plus, the hammer on a semi-auto only AK is machined not to allow that little trip lever to fit under the front of it; not to mention the fact that the receiver does not have the extra hole required for that trip lever to be installed.

Sometimes, manufacturers of semi-auto only AK's also machine off a little tab on the rear of the disconnector, and the corresponding tab on the safety lever that pushes the disconnector out of the way so it doesn't grab the hammer on a full-auto gun.

So, you, as the home gunsmith about to take his life in his hands, decides to "file" down something to make the gun full auto.

Assuming that when you file down the disconnector, the gun doesn't just stop firing at all as the hammer follows the bolt carrier into battery, you have just created a bomb patiently waiting to blow your face off.

Since the AK action is not "timed", your little file job has created a situation where there is NOTHING to prevent that round from firing as soon as the bolt face touches it. The hammer falls with the bolt carrier, and so will detonate the primer as soon as it can, whether the round is chambered and the bolt is closed or not. So instead of that full auto AK you always wanted, you now have one that will eventually kill or injure you or bystanders the first time it fires a round out of battery.

That is why you don't want to illegally convert your semi-auto AK to full auto.

__________________________________________

On a similar subject, those of you who read the above carefully realize that there is nothing to prevent a semi-auto AK from firing out of battery either. This is technically true, but the tolerances of the AK-47 are loose enough that I have literally never heard of an AK firing out of battery (I'm not saying it's never happened--just that I've never heard of it).

The lack of "timing" is not an issue, since "timing" only applies to full-auto fire. The disconnector will hold the hammer on a semi-auto AK until you let go of it, and it is humanly impossible to let go of the disconnector faster than the action can cycle. So this is not a problem.

The one worry might be that if your AK gets so full of crud that the bolt won't close properly, then you might have a problem with firing out of battery, but I have literally fired hundreds of rounds through AK's without cleaning them, and I've never had a problem. Suffice it to say; clean your weapon occasionally, and if you drop it in goop so that the bolt lugs might be gunked up enough to prevent the bolt from closing, then your gun needs a thorough cleaning before you try to fire it again. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

:smile:
 
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#79 ·
A friend in Special Forces related to me one encounter. During an exercise his band of meery men had their weapons set to Semi-auto, and scored a 20:1 kill ratio against a group whose weapons were all on "Full". Full auto may be fun, but unless you're shooting at an airplane, or trying to keep someone's head down until you can move into a more advantageous position, it's useless as an extra bell-button.
 
#80 ·
the AK47 can be converted to automatic with parts that you already have when you buy a kit. it takes 20 minutes with a dremel, and a drill press. as for out of battery fire, the bolt locks into battery before the hammer can even touch the bolt. if you dont blieve me, do this:

Take the top cover off your rifle.

Pull the carrier back.

Slowly let it forward, SLOWLY!

Release the hammer, so it "Follows" the carrier.

Now pay attention, look at the back of the bolt, it will start spinning, go slow so you see it.

the bolt will stop spinning even though the carrier is still about 3/8" from closing, that means, the bolt is locked in place while the carrier isnt even closed yet!

now, do this over again, but this time, when the bolt stops spinning, look at the "Tail" on the end of the carrier, you will see that even though the bolt is locked in place, this "Tail" is still stopping the hammer from touching the firing pin until the bolt if fully locked, and the carrier is closed enough. this means that out of battery fire is impossible.

I bet i just stepped on plenty of toes, but their the toes of slobs if any, so its fine.

also, id like to point out, if someone really wants a full auto, they WILL get it, even if its a felony. so this post is useless, as people who want them will ignore this post all together.
 
#81 ·
ZOID ZODIAN said:
These internet Assault Weapons discussion boards invariably attract newbies or gun-owners with a little bit of warped enthusiasm who just can't get it out of their heads how neat it would be to convert their AK to full auto.

In discussions with people I meet, who are invariably new to guns, I keep hearing how easy it is to convert your AK to full auto by filing on this or that part.

The AK-47 action is not "timed" . We all know about revolvers, and how they are "timed" so that the round is not fired until the cylinder has locked on a fresh chamber, and the chamber is lined up properly.

A full-auto AK-47 has an extra lever just forward of the hammer that holds the hammer back until the bolt is fully closed and locked. It also prevents the hammer from falling unless the round is fully seated in the chamber. This is to prevent the gun from firing "out of battery", and possibly blowing pieces of the firearm into your face. Because the AK action is not "timed", the hammer could very well fall too soon without this lever holding the hammer back until tripped by the bolt carrier.

When an AK is manufactured in semi-auto only, the little lug on the bolt carrier that trips any full-auto lever is machined off. Plus, the hammer on a semi-auto only AK is machined not to allow that little trip lever to fit under the front of it; not to mention the fact that the receiver does not have the extra hole required for that trip lever to be installed.

Sometimes, manufacturers of semi-auto only AK's also machine off a little tab on the rear of the disconnector, and the corresponding tab on the safety lever that pushes the disconnector out of the way so it doesn't grab the hammer on a full-auto gun.

:geezer:I have a full auto that was converted by the monkeys at century to be semi only. It still has some full auto parts in it starting with the bolt, carrier and hammer. All they did was remove the auto disconnector, FILE the notch in the hammer but they left the pin that holds the disconnector there to reinforce the reciever though. As far as I can tell, it only consists of the hammer, sear and trigger. No disconnector here (thats the extra 'lever' in front of the hammer which times the hammer release in auto).
You know there is a way to file the hammer to make it into semi-auto only. I looked at the picture of one in 'SUBMACHINE GUN DESIGNER'S HANDBOOK' . You have a very good point though about them firing out of battery without the required parts. Whether its legal or not :jail: makes no difference if you have no hand to hold it or eyes to look down the sights.:cool::death:
 
#82 ·
AK76239 said:
also, id like to point out, if someone really wants a full auto, they WILL get it, even if its a felony. so this post is useless, as people who want them will ignore this post all together.
:geezer:Hey, thanks for reminding me to go check up on the paperwork for my new one. I really want one and it will be $4000 for the thing after taxes, fees, paperwork and all that. So I WILL be getting one soon just that it won't be a felony! :) Btw, Happy thanks giving all .
 
#83 · (Edited)
3 WEELIN GEEZER said:
:geezer:I have a full auto that was converted by the monkeys at century to be semi only. It still has some full auto parts in it starting with the bolt, carrier and hammer. All they did was remove the auto disconnector, FILE the notch in the hammer but they left the pin that holds the disconnector there to reinforce the reciever though. As far as I can tell, it only consists of the hammer, sear and trigger. No disconnector here (thats the extra 'lever' in front of the hammer which times the hammer release in auto).
You know there is a way to file the hammer to make it into semi-auto only. I looked at the picture of one in 'SUBMACHINE GUN DESIGNER'S HANDBOOK' . You have a very good point though about them firing out of battery without the required parts. Whether its legal or not :jail: makes no difference if you have no hand to hold it or eyes to look down the sights.:cool::death:
If you have one of those "converted" full auto AKs that has an elongated pin where the full auto auto sear retaining pin WAS, as well as a small piece of metal tac welded in the side rail to prevent the lever of the auto sear from fitting in, as well as an extra groove cut in to the right side of the receier for the slector lever, you have an unlawful weapon that was recall by the ATF some years ago. The ATF has a ruling that basically states "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" my advice turn it in, especially since you hae now annouced to the community you hae it.
 
#84 ·
3 WEELIN GEEZER said:
:geezer:I have a full auto that was converted by the monkeys at century to be semi only. It still has some full auto parts in it starting with the bolt, carrier and hammer. All they did was remove the auto disconnector, FILE the notch in the hammer but they left the pin that holds the disconnector there to reinforce the reciever though. As far as I can tell, it only consists of the hammer, sear and trigger. No disconnector here (thats the extra 'lever' in front of the hammer which times the hammer release in auto).
You know there is a way to file the hammer to make it into semi-auto only. I looked at the picture of one in 'SUBMACHINE GUN DESIGNER'S HANDBOOK' . You have a very good point though about them firing out of battery without the required parts. Whether its legal or not :jail: makes no difference if you have no hand to hold it or eyes to look down the sights.:cool::death:


What does the full auto bolt have that a semi-automatic bolt doesn't have?
 
#85 ·
1ak2b said:
What does the full auto bolt have that a semi-automatic bolt doesn't have?
There is no difference in the bolt itself. However, the bolt carrier has a little metal "nub" in the right rear which trips the safety sear (auto sear) in full auto mode.

Without the safety sear (the goodie which rides on the evil third pin), the nub is useless and doesn't touch anything.

Actually, it would be nice if we all had the safety sear, because it prevents the hammer from falling unless the bolt carrier is fully forward (a nice safety feature).

Unfortunately though, the safety sear also places the AK one small step away from full auto (you only need hold back and disable the disconnector).

Therefore, the safety sear is a big no-no. In fact, the mere presence of the third HOLE makes the weapon illegal.

Of course, as said earlier, those people who have already done it or plan to do it don't talk about it in public.


Roger
 
#86 ·
I'd like to point out here that it's almost impossible to make an AK fire out of battery even if you were to remove the disconnector. The father of our hobby designed his rifle so well that this is very unlikely. The tang on the rear of the bolt-carrier will always prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin until the bolt is fully locked in battery. Try this with your AK without any ammo. You'll see that the released hammer will ride the back of the bolt-carrier as it slides forward, but the tang on the back is just long enough to hold the hammer away from from the rear of the bolt. When the bolt-carrier reaches the front trunnion the bolt rotates into battery, and then the bolt-carrier advances a half-centimeter or so with the bolt fully locked in battery until it gets far enough forward to release the now-spent hammer to drop lightly onto the firing pin.

Usually it doesn't have enough strength left in the hammer spring to detonate the round. It simply dents the primer, making the round unstable and dangerous. Sometimes, though it will detonate the round, but this is uncommon.

The only way I've found to make the round detonate out of battery is to jam the firing pin in the bolt, so it's locked forward. In this condition it can detonate the round when it first contacts it. Even in this circumstance, though the round will probably just burn rather than detonate.

Now I'm not trying to say that illegal mods to your AK aren't dangerous. It's just that the danger isn't likely to come from your AK. It's more likely to come from the guy who rapes you every day in prison.

Stay legal. Stay safe.
 
#89 ·
AKarl_12 said:
Who needs FULL-AUTO when you can bump fire:ak47:

I burn up enough ammo the allready, if I went FULL-AUTO I would be in the poor house.
Ain't that the truth. Last weekend I went through about 700 rounds of 5.45mm and 400 rounds of 7.62mm. I was bumping my Yugo M70B1 and my Tantal. A group of guys shooting a full-auto Uzi came over to see how my "full-auto" AKs felt. They were pretty disappointed to hear that they were semi-auto. They were also amazed to hear that all that firing was coming from a semi-auto AK.
 
#90 ·
my-rifle said:
Ain't that the truth. Last weekend I went through about 700 rounds of 5.45mm and 400 rounds of 7.62mm. I was bumping my Yugo M70B1 and my Tantal. A group of guys shooting a full-auto Uzi came over to see how my "full-auto" AKs felt. They were pretty disappointed to hear that they were semi-auto. They were also amazed to hear that all that firing was coming from a semi-auto AK.
+1 I love screwing with peoples head at the range!
 
#92 ·
I know the feeling Harry, it was fun to bump when a case of 762x39 was under $100 and you could get a battle pack of 762 NATO for $25.
Who would of thought that would have came to an end?
Now I make every box last as long as I can.
 
#93 ·
best reason not to convert a semi to full auto.... easy
cuz i dont like getting ass raped by some 400 pound cell mate
 
#96 ·
Why is this a sticky? It started out with a guy who clearly had no idea what he was talking about rambling on and preaching why its a bad idea to file down "something" to make an AK full auto . Thats not how you make an AK full auto. You buy a parts set and drill a hole and cut a slot. This is the AK47 forum and probably everyone here has a stack of full auto parts laying around anyway. Takes half an hour if you are slow and its as safe as anything. Is it a good idea. Sure it is as long as you have the appropriate paperwork on your side which is really easy to get. Pay the money , file the forms. The ATF WILL approve you. If you dont have the forms then don't do it. Not because its unsafe but because its illegal. It will get you thrown in jail or at least cost you a lot of money. I know someone in the federal pen for doing just that. Someone will hear you shooting and will call the cops on their cell phone !!! Pay the $500 a year and you can do whatever you want. I remember when I was a kid we'd go out to the hills outside of Los Angeles and shoot my grandpas Schnellfeuer Mauser pistol. His father in law was a LA county deputy sheriff and his sheriff buddies would often go out with us. Nobody cared! Its not like that anymore. You'll go to jail if you try that now.

Full auto in a military setting is just a waste of ammo unless your doing a quick suppressive fire burst to get the other guys heads down while your guys move. In a target shooting scenario its just plain fun albeit expensive but get the right paperwork done first. Be an SOT. Why the hell not?
 
#97 ·
Why is this a sticky? It started out with a guy who clearly had no idea what he was talking about rambling on and preaching why its a bad idea to file down "something" to make an AK full auto . Thats not how you make an AK full auto. You buy a parts set and drill a hole and cut a slot. This is the AK47 forum and probably everyone here has a stack of full auto parts laying around anyway. Takes half an hour if you are slow and its as safe as anything. Is it a good idea. Sure it is as long as you have the appropriate paperwork on your side which is really easy to get. Pay the money , file the forms. The ATF WILL approve you. If you dont have the forms then don't do it. Not because its unsafe but because its illegal. It will get you thrown in jail or at least cost you a lot of money. I know someone in the federal pen for doing just that. Someone will hear you shooting and will call the cops on their cell phone !!! Pay the $500 a year and you can do whatever you want. I remember when I was a kid we'd go out to the hills outside of Los Angeles and shoot my grandpas Schnellfeuer Mauser pistol. His father in law was a LA county deputy sheriff and his sheriff buddies would often go out with us. Nobody cared! Its not like that anymore. You'll go to jail if you try that now.

Full auto in a military setting is just a waste of ammo unless your doing a quick suppressive fire burst to get the other guys heads down while your guys move. In a target shooting scenario its just plain fun albeit expensive but get the right paperwork done first. Be an SOT. Why the hell not?
WTF

Only dealers can get the $500 a year SOT license, to get around it being not allowed to produce any more fullauto guns. A buddy of mine is a dealer and has several SOT weapons, when I mentioned getting your FFL just so you could get cheap fullauto weapons and pay $500 a year for it (besides your $600 a year FFL license), he said the ATF isn't that stupid and when they see you haven't made a business buying and selling guns, but you've aquired "demo guns" they would go after you for tax evasion. Either they're dumber than I think, or maybe your not as smart as you think you are. Question is, if they were to go after you for trying to fake the system, how deep are your pockets for the fees a good lawyer will charge.
Anyhow, how is the paper work easy to get?? The business address can no longer be the same address as your home, you must have a separate address for your FFL if I'm not mistaken, the license cost for that is $600 a year now, and the SOT tax on each and every fullauto firearm you have is $500 a year.
 
#98 ·
$600 a year FFL license? What ? I believe theyre up to $160 for 3 years. Same regulations as buying a firearm. FBI background check and LEO signoff plus business license.

Your'e REALLY mistaken on several counts. The SOT is $500 a year for all the guns you can build plus the costs for a class 1 ffl and class 7 manufacturers license which are renewable every 3 years but they are much cheaper than the SOT. 11% excise tax on any rifles you manufacture and sell. If you have a home based business which are legal in most places you can have the ffl in that adress. No problem. Just keep the books up to date and they like you to have a gun safe. Ive done it and i know several guys who have home based ffl's at this time. The SOT is just another paper on top of the other two. Who said anything about faking the system. As an 01/07/SOT you just have to have regular business hours which are up to you and keep books of transfers. You deal just like a storefront FFL and you are not required to have a regular inventory . People can order through you to buy things from century or whatever wholesaler they want. Do 4-5 transfers a year and they can't say squat. As a manufacturer you arent required to have a regular inventory. You charge a fee for transfers and you can transfer class 3 items. You can't get post may samples unless you have a law enforcement letter but you can build all the MG's and silencers for evaluation on a form 2 you want. No more $200 taxes or LEO signoffs. When you go out of the SOT business you have to demill them and send your books into the ATF. All on the up and up.
 
#99 ·
Very good explanation, however by who's definition are normal business hours, if you already have a 9-5 job? With the ATF seeming to rethink everything in the past couple years, it still sounds risky unless you can show your running a business, and not a hobby that you do on the weekends.......

As my buddy told me, it would suck if you were the person they decided to make an example out of....
 
#100 ·
Make an example out of you for following the letter of the law? I dont think so. For the most part the ATF is really there to help businesses out. No shit. Business hours can be weekends , It can be evenings. It can be whenever YOU want as long as its regular hours. set aside a few hours say from 7- 9 pm. I sent my stuff in years ago but thats what I did. The guy I buy receivers through now does the same thing. Its hell to get ahold of him but its all legal.
 
#101 ·
Anyone interested in following the licensing and business path outlined by chipmechanic should read the BATF NFA Handbook. Not that he's wrong, it's just that the BATF is the penultimate authority on the matter :)

ATF Online - National Firearms Act Handbook

For instance, from that publication:
5.1.3.7 Business premises. The applicant must have a permanent premises from which business is to be conducted. The applicant must certify that conducting business from that location is not prohibited by State or local law; that within 30 days after license approval the business will comply with State and local laws applicable to the business and business will not be conducted until State and local requirements have been met; and that the chief law enforcement officer at the proposed business location has been advised of the intent to apply for a license.
 
#102 ·
I would pay special attention to this section:
5.2.6 Collectors acquiring NFA firearms for their personal collections by acquiring dealers’ licenses and paying NFA special tax. Some NFA firearms collectors, who are not engaged in any firearms business, have been known to acquire a GCA license to deal in firearms and pay the NFA special tax to acquire NFA firearms for their personal firearms collections. They do so for a number of reasons: (1) to acquire firearms from nonlicensees residing out-of-state; (2) to circumvent requirements imposed on individuals to provide their fingerprints and photographs in order to receive NFA firearms and law enforcement certifications authorizing their receipt of such firearms; and (3) to avoid NFA transfer tax on firearms they receive from FFLs/SOTs.

Warning: These transactions violate the law and can only lead to trouble for the collector. In these instances, the collector has committed Federal felonies by falsely stating on a license application and special tax return that the collector intends to conduct a firearms business. Any NFA firearms received tax free by the collector are subject to transfer tax and the collector’s receipt of the firearms tax free violated the NFA. As held in ATF Ruling 76-22, these transfers are unlawful and the firearms received are subject to seizure and forfeiture.
 
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