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Thread: A Reminder of Why You Can't and Don't Want to Convert Your AK to full Auto.

  1. #51
    BANNED jpglee1's Avatar
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    I think if the SHTF I can drill a hole and do it right, otherwise Ill spend my $$$ at the FA range and run em off for $20 a mag...lot cheaper than my lawyer....

    I just wanted to offer some insight thats all... I personally am acquainted with an ex-CIA (or other agency, he wont say...) operative that one time told me me how ANY AK can be made to run FA w/out any permanent mods. I know its hard to believe and I cant post the info but trust me, ANY AK can be made to run FA w/no tools or perm mods.... I wouldnt reccomend messing around trying it however. He told me that occasionally you WILL get a FTF from the hammer riding the bolt from being out of time.. This is the TIMING issue everyone is talking about, NOT the timing of lock-up of the bolt.
    As I posted above, unless you have a unsupported bolt face (which I have never seen on a semi auto AK. I am amazed the BATF is ok with full supported faces on semi AKs...)there is no potential for an out of battery discharge as the rounds will be up on the push lip on the bolt, not in the bolt face... Remember there is an EXTRACTOR that also will hold the round out until the last possible second. Now a burr on the face of the bolt push lip might cause a out of battery discharge but thats about the only way I can see it happening...

    ANYWAY DO NOT ILLEGALY MODIFY YOUR WEAPON. Go to Las Vegas or some other town w/FA ranges and just rent one. I went and burned thru about $750 on my honeymoon and that got it outta my system. Honestly I feel that FA is only good for 0-50feet max, otherwise I think aim semi auto fire is superior. The one time I would disagree would be if you had a full auto 20ga w/ #4 buck...*OOOOH* that would be AWESOME...equivalent to 10 SMGs firing at one time....
    After spending the better part of 8 hours shooting FA to my hearts content I can now say it gets kinda boring actually...true the juvenile fun factor never recedes but you can help and think *IF I was really in battle I sure would rip thru a lot of valuable ammo...* I can see the need for a S.A.W. to lay down break-out cover fire but the avg. guy prolly doesnt need FA. IF I had 5 secs to choose between a 12GA w/200rds an MP5 w/1000rds or a M1 Garand w/100rds I would take the M1 in a heartbeat.....


    JP
    Last edited by jpglee1; 04-07-2005 at 12:56 PM.

  2. #52
    GuncoHolic kernelkrink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZOID ZODIAN
    Your reasoning is sound; however, keep in mind that if "slam-firing" on full-auto were not a problem, then the Russians would not have added the hammer retarder device to the AKM to keep it from firing out of battery due to excessive bolt carrier bounce. That is, the firing pin must be capable of hitting the primer or this would not have been a problem.
    Or the carrier bounce caused firing to stop because the hammer was hitting the carrier tail instead of the firing pin. The bolt itself is fully locked before the carrier stops its forward travel. Look into the magwell of an empty gun as you let the bolt and carrier travel forward slowly. The bolt stops rotating while the carrier is still shy of stopping. That carrier would have to bounce a whole lot before the bolt itself unlocked!

    JP, you may have heard stories from people who are honest, but have they ever tried it themselves, or demonstrated (and got to work) the actual method to you? I have heard from many otherwise knowledgeable people that "the 7.62X39 AK47 was designed in that caliber because their rifles could chamber and fire the 7.62X51 (.308) our M14 rifles used in Vietnam, but their ammo would not work in ours." They believe it and repeat it because someone they trusted told them so. Even laying the rounds side by side will not convince some people of the impossibilty of it.

  3. #53
    GuncoHolic kernelkrink's Avatar
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    BTW, this method for firing FA wouldn't involve limiting trigger movement, would it? Ala' the old MAC .38 empty behind the trigger mod?

  4. #54
    BANNED jpglee1's Avatar
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    I cant go into details but you dont modify any existing parts and YES I saw it demonstrated at a FA shoot in Las Vegas. The person who informed me of it was also a C3 owner so he could legally show me the "mod" with his AK since it was already a C3 rifle. Anyway its not a big deal Im just saying the logic of an unlocked bolt slam fire doesnt work with me, I cannot see it happening because as you said there is no way the hammer can come anywhere near the FP until it is locked solid into battery....

    Im not saying all this to convince people to mess with their rifles to get FA illegally, I am trying to debunk the rumour that the cartridges will "explode" inside the receiver shell and cause shrapnel to maim you. I can see a 3x proof load blowing a locked breech up, or maybe having a stuck slug in the bore and shooting another round to cause it to "pop", but I have a hard time believing a .308 let along a 762x39 would explode like a 'grenade as everyone suggests...All you gotta do is rig something to hold a cartridge in a vise and rig a remote firing pin. When you light off a cartridge that isnt in a chamber it's pretty pathetic what happens. The bullet pops outta the case and goes about 10ft away and the case goes the opposite direction about 10ft. Think of Newton's law of force...If the cartridge isnt supported from behind when it goes off the kinetic energy is split 50/50 to the bullet and the case and it really doesnt do anything dramatic....

    Another way to try it is to use a regular glass-fuse fuse block for a car. They fit .22LR rounds perfectly. Put a .22LR in where the fuse would go, apply direct 12V to each terminal on the fuse block (REMOTELY) and the 22LR will go POP and come apart. Its totally un-eventful (I saw this on MythBusters on Discovery Channel..they had a myth that you could kill someone w/a 22LR in their fuse box...myth busted)

    OT: It did get me thinking maybe there is someway to make a semi-automatic (or single shot) electrically fired rifle w/out a firing pin or mechanical ignition system at all. Im thinking you would have to make a teflon sleeve to fit in the chamber to isolate the round from the breech to allow a short circuit THROUGH the cartridge to make it light off.....

    ANYWAY IM DONE arguing this topic. I could care less if someone wants to think their AK will blow up on them, maybe it will keep some IDIOTS from trying something IDIOTIC like making an illegal MG by dicking around with their AK... Remember kids making an illegal NFA weapon buys you 10yrs @ Club Fed....

    ALL INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS THREAD IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND EDUCATIONAL USE ONLY. ANY ATTEMPT TO CONVERT AN AK IS AT THE RISK OF THE OWNER. JPGLEE1 INC HOLDS NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR MORONS DOING ILLEGAL CRAP. CONSIDER YOUR SELF WARNED OF THE POTENTIAL PIT_FALLS. DONT DO IT, ITS NOT WORTH IT!!!!!!!!

  5. #55
    Gunco Member justashooter's Avatar
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    wow, this lousy thread is still open? gotta comment on two replies that are way off the mark:

    zodiac, the rate reducer is in place to limit the cyclic rate for purposes of controllability. a krink (lighter carrier) can be made to safely run over 1000 cpm, but is not controllable. 600 cpm is better, and 450 cpm is ideal with an ak.

    lee, your bud is right on the mark. field expedient mods can make any semi go full, but are hazardous, as they usually involve defeating the disconnector. kalashnikov installed a safety sear on the third pin to retain the hammer until the bolt was closed for a reason.
    your assesment of the danger of an uncontained case is correct if the case is clamped in a vise. if it is entering a chamber of a rifle that is not quite closed (lugs not rotated by the carrier cam), and fired by a following hammer, things are very different. in this case, there is enough containment to allow an acceleration of the rate of combustion that all progressive propellants experience when contained. this firing will bloop the bullet into the lead, contained combustion will expand the case, allow the unlocked bolt to be driven backward, and vent gas, possibly injuring the operator.
    the mechanics of this require fractions of a second to occur, and the case, which is not quite fully entered into the chamber (or perhaps entered, but the carrier has not followed enuf to rotate the lugs into lockup), will fail at it's base, seperating the head from the case wall, which is expanded against the chamber walls tightly. very dangerous situation.
    most guns are designed to vent gas from a failed case thru the magwell. keep your hand on the handguard when shooting. do not adopt a target style pose that involves placing the hand under the mag floor plate.

  6. #56
    Gunco Member TheOtherOne's Avatar
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    Maybe someone has already said this, but doesn't the little tab at the end of the bolt carrier keep the gun from ever firing out of battery?

    Take the top cover off your rifle and then slowly cycle the action. Watch the hammer as you close it and see when it can finally hit the back of the bolt.... it doesn't happen until it is all the way forward because that tab keeps the hammer back until then.

    Also, it was my understanding that if the part of the disconnector that catches the hammer was removed you would most likely be creating a single shot weapon because there would be no delay for the hammer to hit hard enough since it would be riding that tab on the carrier forward the whole way.

    Of course, I'm no expert so.... maybe not?
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  7. #57
    Gunco Regular Krupski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justashooter
    wow, this lousy thread is still open?
    ..........
    kalashnikov installed a safety sear on the third pin to retain the hammer until the bolt was closed for a reason.
    What you call a "safety sear" is in fact the "hammer releaser" which is tripped by a tab on the bolt carrier (which we call, pathetically quaking in fear, the "auto sear").

    This allows the selector to be in the "disabled disconnector" (i.e. full auto) mode without the hammer following the bolt carrier forward.

    The hammer retarder reduces the need for close tolerances between the bolt carrier and the hammer releaser. As a bonus, it also reduces the cyclic firing rate to a more reasonable speed.

    Roger
    "Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life's motto." -- Dr. Mikhail T. Kalashnikov

  8. #58
    Gunco Member justashooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krupski
    What you call a "safety sear" is in fact the "hammer releaser" which is tripped by a tab on the bolt carrier (which we call, pathetically quaking in fear, the "auto sear").

    This allows the selector to be in the "disabled disconnector" (i.e. full auto) mode without the hammer following the bolt carrier forward.

    The hammer retarder reduces the need for close tolerances between the bolt carrier and the hammer releaser. As a bonus, it also reduces the cyclic firing rate to a more reasonable speed.

    Roger
    you gotta be kidding me? i'm gonna ring mikael and have him set you straight.

    hammer releaser? the safety sear controls the hammer release, buddy. same thing in all auto-rifles in this class (ar, fal, whatever) that fire from a closed bolt and floating firing pin.

    the rate reducer is all about cyclic rate. nothing to do with tolerances. is possible to change rate by replacing the fly-weight on the reducer with one of a different weight, or grinding on the existing one (only increases rate). simple physics.

    {wraps arm around wayward young soul in fatherly way}
    "come into my workshop for a bit, and we can work on your understanding of the mechanics of auto-rifle function..."

  9. #59
    Throbbing Member scheistermeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpglee1
    OT: It did get me thinking maybe there is someway to make a semi-automatic (or single shot) electrically fired rifle w/out a firing pin or mechanical ignition system at all. Im thinking you would have to make a teflon sleeve to fit in the chamber to isolate the round from the breech to allow a short circuit THROUGH the cartridge to make it light off.....
    been done and is in testing by the military. they use caseless ammo lined up 1 after the other in the barrel

  10. #60
    Gunco Rookie half_wolf's Avatar
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    from what i understand, full auto is only good for military applications, such as laying down suppressive fire against LARGE numbers of enemies.

    when i say large, i mean that the only benefit for full auto is for a military squad not an individual, or small group.
    its a tactical option for true military battles. anyone familiar with war tactics know that the amount of firepower and ability to project "walls of lead" is extremely important for winning battles.

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