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A Reminder of Why You Can't and Don't Want to Convert Your AK to full Auto.

138K views 284 replies 141 participants last post by  2ndAmendican 
#1 ·
These internet Assault Weapons discussion boards invariably attract newbies or gun-owners with a little bit of warped enthusiasm who just can't get it out of their heads how neat it would be to convert their AK to full auto.

In discussions with people I meet, who are invariably new to guns, I keep hearing how easy it is to convert your AK to full auto by filing on this or that part.

I'm tired of it.

To manufacture an AK as a semi auto weapon, a different fire control group is used; a different bolt carrier is used; and the receiver is machined slightly differently. You as a civilian cannot legally find any way on earth to convert your lawfully-purchased semi-auto AK to full auto. Period. End of Story. I won't go into the laws here, but suffice it to say that if it wasn't already what is called a "fully transferable" full auto AK, dutifully registered as such by the Federal Government, then you can't own it. Deal with it.

Now, let's say you're one of those adventurous people who likes to go tell people that all you have to do is file down the disconnector so it won't grab the hammer and you have "instant full-auto".

Here's why that's not wise:

1. It's illegal. You will be decades older by the time you get out of Federal Prison for doing it. There is no parole in Federal Prison. Twenty Years is twenty years. I'm not saying that's the sentence you'll get, buy you understand my point. Firing more than one round with one pull of the trigger may be fun, but it's not worth being married to a guy covered with tattoos for several years.


2. It's dangerous. I deal a lot with gunsmiths; I read a lot of engineering literature on firearms. I understand how firearms work and don't work. I have repaired my own personally-owned AK's. I know what breaks them and what fixes them. Over the last ten years, I have also rubbed elbows with enough gunsmiths who have had to "fix" home hobbyists' misguided projects that I know enough not to EVER want to convert a semi-auto AK to full auto.

The AK-47 action is not "timed" . We all know about revolvers, and how they are "timed" so that the round is not fired until the cylinder has locked on a fresh chamber, and the chamber is lined up properly.

A full-auto AK-47 has an extra lever just forward of the hammer that holds the hammer back until the bolt is fully closed and locked. It also prevents the hammer from falling unless the round is fully seated in the chamber. This is to prevent the gun from firing "out of battery", and possibly blowing pieces of the firearm into your face. Because the AK action is not "timed", the hammer could very well fall too soon without this lever holding the hammer back until tripped by the bolt carrier.

This is why a full-auto AK has different parts: it requires a special hammer and a special bolt carrier to interact with this trip lever.

When an AK is manufactured in semi-auto only, the little lug on the bolt carrier that trips any full-auto lever is machined off. Plus, the hammer on a semi-auto only AK is machined not to allow that little trip lever to fit under the front of it; not to mention the fact that the receiver does not have the extra hole required for that trip lever to be installed.

Sometimes, manufacturers of semi-auto only AK's also machine off a little tab on the rear of the disconnector, and the corresponding tab on the safety lever that pushes the disconnector out of the way so it doesn't grab the hammer on a full-auto gun.

So, you, as the home gunsmith about to take his life in his hands, decides to "file" down something to make the gun full auto.

Assuming that when you file down the disconnector, the gun doesn't just stop firing at all as the hammer follows the bolt carrier into battery, you have just created a bomb patiently waiting to blow your face off.

Since the AK action is not "timed", your little file job has created a situation where there is NOTHING to prevent that round from firing as soon as the bolt face touches it. The hammer falls with the bolt carrier, and so will detonate the primer as soon as it can, whether the round is chambered and the bolt is closed or not. So instead of that full auto AK you always wanted, you now have one that will eventually kill or injure you or bystanders the first time it fires a round out of battery.

That is why you don't want to illegally convert your semi-auto AK to full auto.

__________________________________________

On a similar subject, those of you who read the above carefully realize that there is nothing to prevent a semi-auto AK from firing out of battery either. This is technically true, but the tolerances of the AK-47 are loose enough that I have literally never heard of an AK firing out of battery (I'm not saying it's never happened--just that I've never heard of it).

The lack of "timing" is not an issue, since "timing" only applies to full-auto fire. The disconnector will hold the hammer on a semi-auto AK until you let go of it, and it is humanly impossible to let go of the disconnector faster than the action can cycle. So this is not a problem.

The one worry might be that if your AK gets so full of crud that the bolt won't close properly, then you might have a problem with firing out of battery, but I have literally fired hundreds of rounds through AK's without cleaning them, and I've never had a problem. Suffice it to say; clean your weapon occasionally, and if you drop it in goop so that the bolt lugs might be gunked up enough to prevent the bolt from closing, then your gun needs a thorough cleaning before you try to fire it again. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

:smile:
 
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#224 ·
OK, first off if there was a whole casing stuck in the chamber, the bullet tip of the next round would have impacted the rear of the case and failed to chamber with the bolt carrier almost fully rearward. In this position the hammer cannot even fall, let alone hit the firing pin. Even if the round somehow went off in this position, the case would blow out, the pressure simply venting to atmosphere. The bullet would not have been propelled forward. What likely happened is the next to last fired round separated, that is the forward part of the case broke off from the rear and the rear was ejected, leaving the forward part in the chamber. The last round was then fed into the chamber and into the remains of the previous case, causing the new round to stick out farther than normal. If the round fired on chambering, that is you didn't pull the trigger but it fired anyway, then the firing pin likely stuck forward. If you did pull the trigger, a properly functioning rifle would not have fired in this situation. The "tail" on the back of the carrier prevents firing pin contact with the hammer unless the bolt is mostly locked up. Assuming correct headspace, the bolt would have been unlocked if the case was not fully chambered. Unlocked would mean the tail would block the hammer fall.

By "retaining pins" I assume you mean the axis pins that the hammer and trigger rotate on. These pins are secured in the receiver by a retaining wire, commonly called a "shepherd's hook". Just under the large head of these pins is a groove, the spring wire retainer fits down in this groove and keeps the pins from walking out. A common mod is to replace this wire retainer with a couple individual retaining clips available at a hardware store.
 
#225 ·
14. ...... One of the rivets on the right side holding the front trunion to the receiver was gone. I don't know whether it was blown out on the misfire or if it was already missing. The other right-side rivet was beginning to come loose.
That's really scary hearing this.

Glad to hear you weren't hurt
And welcome to the forum, since this is your first post.
 
#226 · (Edited)
Thank you

That's really scary hearing this.

Glad to hear you weren't hurt
And welcome to the forum, since this is your first post.
Thank you, Coils. I'm glad to be here and happy to find this forum.

------------

KernelKirk,

Thanks for the detailed description.

I'm not a gun expert, nor even very knowledgeable about them (Though I did receive a "self-taught" crash course the 1st time I tried to clean my new rifle, when it spontaneously disassembled itself, necessitating my reassembling it if ever wanted to fire it again.)

But your description sounds like a perfect explanation for what happened.

What likely happened is the next to last fired round separated, that is the forward part of the case broke off from the rear and the rear was ejected, leaving the forward part in the chamber. The last round was then fed into the chamber and into the remains of the previous case, causing the new round to stick out farther than normal.
That fits perfectly for the description of the jammed casing(s) I have in front of me. If I had a functioning camera, I'd upload a picture of it. (I do have one somewhere. When I find it I'll upload a picture.)

The forward section of the jammed casings is missing its most posterior part. (i.e., the part the firing pin strikes.) And the 2nd casing fragment only has the most posterior part remaining (i.e. the part the firing pin strikes--including a slightly off-center indentation where the firing pin struck it.)

If the round fired on chambering, that is you didn't pull the trigger but it fired anyway, then the firing pin likely stuck forward. If you did pull the trigger, a properly functioning rifle would not have fired in this situation.
I can't recall whether I pulled the trigger or not.

Since the firing pin is contained in the bolt, could this misfire have been caused by a malfunctioning bolt?

The bolt never looked right to me. Though this was supposedly a "new" rifle, the bolt looked like it had an excessive amount of wear for only the 300-350 rounds that I'd fired.
The "tail" on the back of the carrier prevents firing pin contact with the hammer unless the bolt is mostly locked up. Assuming correct headspace, the bolt would have been unlocked if the case was not fully chambered. Unlocked would mean the tail would block the hammer fall.
Yes, that's exactly what I thought. Of all the things I did become familiar with, it was the hammer's position in relation to the bolt. When I first tried to reassemble the rifle, I didn't know the hammer had to be pulled back in order to get the bolt and bolt assembly back in. (I did finally figure it out, however.)

By "retaining pins" I assume you mean the axis pins that the hammer and trigger rotate on. These pins are secured in the receiver by a retaining wire, commonly called a "shepherd's hook". Just under the large head of these pins is a groove, the spring wire retainer fits down in this groove and keeps the pins from walking out.
Yes. The displacement of the shepherd's hook was the 1st problem I had.

Initially, I wasn't aware that there was a groove it was supposed to fit into. In fact, I didn't even see the grooves, until about the 3rd or 4th time the trigger axis pins became unseated. Even then, it was pretty hard to get the retaining wire into the grooves. Actually, I'm not sure if I ever did get it back in the grooves on both the hammer and trigger.

A common mod is to replace this wire retainer with a couple individual retaining clips available at a hardware store.
I saw these online and bookmarked them. They look like a great idea.

Do they actually work?
 
#227 ·
If the bolt or firing pin became damaged the pin could stick in a forward position. Dirt and grease inside the FP channel inside the bolt can also cause this. In any event, with missing rivet(s) the rifle is toast anyway and a replcement is in order. Hopefully the next one will work out better.

The retaining clips I use are the little "snowman" shaped wire clips Lowes sells in their misc hardware drawers. I forget the size, take a pin along and check. There is only on that is even close. For most builds, however, I use the Chinese "L" shaped retainer wire that wraps around the safety selector and then goes over and under the pins. For some reason, the Euro retaining wires are too thin and allow the pins to move back and forth, often popping free. The Chines wires are the same size as the groove and fit perfectly, they never come loose unless you want them to. Less likely to get lost than the individual clips.
 
#228 ·
Retainer Plate

If the bolt or firing pin became damaged the pin could stick in a forward position. Dirt and grease inside the FP channel inside the bolt can also cause this. In any event, with missing rivet(s) the rifle is toast anyway and a replcement is in order. Hopefully the next one will work out better.
Yes. I've returned it and the seller has said they'll replace the rifle.

The retaining clips I use are the little "snowman" shaped wire clips Lowes sells in their misc hardware drawers.
I'll look for them at Lowes.

However, I was thinking of something different--a retainer plate. Something like this


http://store.a51tactical.com/images/TINAK0690.jpg

Would something like this work?
 
#230 ·
Bolt bounce isn't a factor with semi autos, even bump firing you aren't going to be near the cyclic rate of the firearm, so you won't drop the hammer on it before the bolt has settled down.

Something that would look somewhat similar would be a disconnector inconsistently engaging [maybe too weak of a spring or something], it'll leave the hammer down on a live round.
 
#232 · (Edited)
When an AK is manufactured in semi-auto only, the little lug on the bolt carrier that trips any full-auto lever is machined off. Plus, the hammer on a semi-auto only AK is machined not to allow that little trip lever to fit under the front of it; not to mention the fact that the receiver does not have the extra hole required for that trip lever to be installed.


I've rebuilt a number of AK's recently and nowhere did I ever hear of the need to change the bolt carrier. Ive used all 922 compliant parts (Nodak Spud receivers) and fire control group but kept the original bolt carrier.

Is this a problem?
 
#235 ·
Ive had my share of fun, If some one is that interested in shooting ful-autos, They rent them at the by-anual machinegun shoot at KnobCreek gun range. This way You dont get in any trouble. Class 3 weapons are an expensive Hobby. And just as expensive if you do it illegaly.
 
#237 ·
Disney World is exactly 71 miles from my front door. 10k you betcha.
I was 3k for 4 nights. That was with my Military discount. I got in free.
Took the Grandniece down and the lady neighbor plus her little girl, my sister, girlfriend and myself.
Sent everyone out and went too the Don Shula restaurant for a steak.
"Sir your supposed too wear a tie. I dont own no stinking ties. Now shut the hell up and bring me more wine. With these prices. I should be be hand fed."
$98 later, I think the food was o.k..
Yup. Should have bought a full auto.
You tourists enjoy. None of us locals can afford the place. :)
 
#239 · (Edited)
Hi, everyone. I'm an old new AK owner - uhhh, meaning I'm 56 years old, and had always been an AR man, looking down at AK's. Sold my last AR 6 yrs ago, got the "Assault Rifle" bug again, and after seeing 2011 prices for AR's decided on a CAI Yugo Underfolder. VERY happy with this weapon...minute of torso accurate, reliable, and as my wonderful wife said"...it looks mean."

As you can guess by my screen name, I'm a cop...a county mounty, not a fed. I live in a state that allows full auto ownership. I have been lucky enough in my 2 careers, (20 yrs USAF SP, 18 yrs LEO) I've gotten to shoot quite a few full auto weapons, from M-16's to M-60's M-2's, Colt 9MM, H&K .40S&W subguns. They're fun, no doubt, but except for bipod or tripod mounted crew served weapons, difficult for most people to handle effectively. I want to reiterate what numerous other posters have said. If you own a civilian semi auto AK/AR/whatever, and want to "convert" to full auto...DON'T! Those nice Feds with the gold badges WILL eventually catch up with you. An illegally coverted and possessed full auto is a gun you can never show anybody, tell anybody about, or shoot, because the only way you can guarantee your freedom is to keep it an absolute secret...and like the saying goes, if more than 1 person knows your secret, it ain't! If you live in 1 of the 39 states that allows ownership, save your coin, apply for the license or permit or whatever you want to call it, and get one. You'll either love it or get tired of the costs and sell it. Good shooting!
 
#242 ·
Bumpfiring is not illegal. What would you be charged with? Personally I don't believe in going beyond the letter of the law.


I saw an interesting device the other day. It was a crank type trigger for a 10/22 . I know most of them don't work because you end up firing out of battery. This one had a bolt close safety/safety sear incorporated into the trigger pack to prevent the hammer from falling unless the bolt was fully closed. Great idea and they were running out 50 rounds in 5 seconds without fault. Total waste of ammo but totally legal.
 
#244 ·
It is a part that comes with the kit but gets added to the FCG. Take a look at their vids and you get an idea whats going on. They don't show the part in the pics. They call it an interupter. Its a safety sear.

Nanocrank

Keep in mind the SKS uses a safety sear as does the winchester 100 . I think the restriction comes if the gun type had been used as a full auto ever. An L1A1 would convert easily. An SKS might take a dumb monkey an hour or so to make timed full auto.
 
#245 ·
Ah, looking at the vid it interacts with the disconnector, preventing it from resetting until the bolt is closed. That isn't technically a safety sear as it doesn't interact directly with the hammer. That should not be a problem as disabling the disconnector would also disable the thingie they add and just result in hammer follow.
 
#247 ·
Yes, you can be accurate with sustained automatic fire... when shooting prone and with a bipod. I know of a sweet shooting G3 that can make a nice "void" in a target out to some distance while sustaining automatic fire. Even in this case, the G3 was acting as a SAW, not a battle rifle for which it was designed.

Legalities are often annoying and sometimes completely useless, but in general, they stop stupid people from doing something even more stupid.
 
#248 ·
Hey guys, I am new to this forum but not new to AK-47's! I must say, I agree with all of your thoughts on NOT converting your AK from semi to full auto. However, I have been shooting AK's for many years now and I promise you, there is absolutely NO comparison between the two! I have had the luxury of unlimited ammo and a safe place to shoot, which alleviates some of your concerns, but there is nothing in the world like shooting a fully automatic AK-47!
 
#251 ·
The regular AK47 shouldnt have a problem with rapid fire from your fingers - no jamming. What a normal AK-47 has is an extra cross bolt piece just in front of the trigger pin assembly. There is no trick to making an AK-47 that is buit right ot fire full auto since it has all the necessary parts and design to pull this off. There were a few Saiga AK-47 imported that were caught by BATFE upon arrival as they had that 3rd pin though the frame indicating and meaning it "could" have been modified to be a fully functional AK-47 full auto.
 
#256 ·
Hell..

The L.O.s here dont need that shooting locator thing for me.
Hell one shot gets fired in the neighborhood and everyone and their brother comes out of the house and points at my damn house.
The Sheriffs are cool. They dont give a damn.
But the damn Bambi loving, butt lovin Game Warden nazi goes friggen bezerk.
"You vill nots shoots in my forest, is dat understood?"
"Your forest. When the hell did you buy it dickhead?"
 
#257 ·
Would like to add my 2 cents worth, and seeing no new post here in 6 years it's time for one. A few years ago at a local range a guy has this MG 34, real nice, built on top of a legal M16. He had a pickup loaded with ammo, about 10 spare barrels and wanted everyone to shoot it. I took my turn, carefully taking one shot at a time. He stopped me to check if gun was set to full auto. He ask why I was only taking one shot at a time. I told him I wasn't on some berm line or beach head, I just wanted to see how good a gun it was. Oh, it was a good shooter.
 
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